Founded by the late Daniel Rogov, focusing primarily on wines that are either kosher or Israeli.
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David Raccah

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Controversial Subject - Warning....

by David Raccah » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:03 pm

OK, I would like to start a controversial subject - but one that I think needs to be done very soon. We need to change the name of this forum. Seriously, it is starting to creep me out. I do not believe in shrines and this place is starting to feel that way with the title and name of the board. Why not call it:

Israeli and Kosher Wine forum

To be honest and fair that is the overall usage of this forum. Yes, it will not have Rogov's name in it, but he is dead guys, I am saying kaddish for him. We need to move on and start to add real living people to this place. You all know I had crazy respect for him, and NO I have no interest or desire to make a move on that. This is simply a fact that this forum is about kosher and israeli wine, so why not call it that. If we must we can call it:

Israeli and Kosher Wine forum (In memory of Daniel Rogov)

I have no problem with that either. But please can we decide on a name this week. It really creeps me out.


Go ahead and lambaste me, I am fine with that and I am a grown man, but I hope most of you can agree on something that sounds real, other than Rogov's Wine Forum.

David
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

by Andrew B » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:27 pm

Sounds good.

And I nominate Craig Winchell for moderator.
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Pinchas L

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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

by Pinchas L » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:30 pm

David,

I second that. "Israeli and Kosher Wine Forum" gets my vote.

-> Pinchas
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Gabriel Geller

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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

by Gabriel Geller » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:46 pm

I second Dave's suggestion as well as Andrew's for Craig as the moderator (if Craig is ok with that of course!).
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Yossie Horwitz

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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

by Yossie Horwitz » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:59 pm

I am fine with Dave's suggestion for the forum's name. With respect to a moderator, I don't think we need one and suggest we continue with the self-moderation that has worked so well to date.
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Gabriel W

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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

by Gabriel W » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:00 pm

Problem with Craig as Moderator is that he's not a Moderate, he's an Extremist. Aside from that he has mentioned to me that he won't do it. Although it would be fun...
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Yehoshua Werth

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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

by Yehoshua Werth » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:16 pm

WOW...

Did Macys department store change its name after the starter of the Company died? NO
Did Levi Straus change its name after the Straus's no-longer were namesakes of the company? NO
Ben Gurion Airport was named after the fact o we change it on the next leader's Death? I dont think so
Shrine.. Dont get it?.
He started it.. We came here all to share with Rogov and eachother about what he knew more than we did.
Did not think his scores were agree to(high or low) or with my pallete yet did not care; Rogov was I think our best referance..
Why change the Unique identifier(Name and person) that brought us all together?
In memory of would be at least what we owe to him and his efforts; but to just say;"oooohhh I am feeked out with the name of this man that brought us all together seems well..Like an attention grabber(great topic for those wanting to stir the pot as I like to as well) or just again off base. This is not MY forum it is our forum set up by Rogov and Ran by our host's Robin G and family.. WAKE UP.. and smile.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

by Andrew B » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:18 pm

Self moderation is ok too. But if anyone, there's no one else who has both feet in the different sides of the wine world that appeal to the followers of this forum, that is, K and non K
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

by Yehoshua Werth » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:57 pm

Pinchas L wrote:David,

I second that. "Israeli and Kosher Wine Forum" gets my vote.

-> Pinchas


Good idea yet that would exclude some of the forumites that chat with us in this room.

It is mostly that yet not all the way for sure.
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David Raccah

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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

by David Raccah » Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:00 pm

Yehoshua - embrace reality! This forum is for those who wish to discuss kosher and Israeli wines - PERIOD. Sure, there are a few older wine guys from the old blog that "drop by" now and then, but they have almost all moved to the other wine forum. We should embrace who/what we are and stop trying to dream of the past forum, the past life, or the past moderator. Seriously, I said this was controversial, so get over it :D

David
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

by Yehoshua Werth » Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:03 pm

HOW IS THIS NOT ROGOV's WINE FORUM?
Why did we all come here?


Ever been anywhere in the world call the Blah Blah Blah Memorial Auditorium? and chose to leave because of the name.
Even many of the books we read Scular or Religous are ""Dedicated in the Memory of or this book is NAMED for"".. what is realy the issue?

Love be with your day
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

by Yehoshua Werth » Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:21 pm

David Raccah wrote:Yehoshua - embrace reality! This forum is for those who wish to discuss kosher and Israeli wines - PERIOD. Sure, there are a few older wine guys from the old blog that "drop by" now and then, but they have almost all moved to the other wine forum. We should embrace who/what we are and stop trying to dream of the past forum, the past life, or the past moderator. Seriously, I said this was controversial, so get over it :D

David



What Reality and who drew up those terms?
Again agree this is mostly what this(Israel & Kosher) is yet Rogov himself did not give that as Boundries.

Rogov was Moderator yet because he's not here does not mean we need to make a BIG MOVE or do anything different.

Thoughts
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Isaac Chavel

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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

by Isaac Chavel » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:56 pm

I don't feel THAT strongly, but I prefer keeping the name as is.
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Craig Winchell

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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

by Craig Winchell » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:35 pm

Thank you, at least many of you, for your vote of confidence, but I agree with Gabriel W, I am both immoderate and I said I wouldn't do it. I have too few friends as it is, and I will have even fewer if I am a moderator. But furthermore, I am a great believer in self-moderation, and it seems to be doing ok.

I do have feelings about the other subjects, though. I have no problem removing Rogov's name from the title, though I have no problem with a second line giving credit to Rogov for his contribution. But I do have a problem with calling it an Israeli and Kosher Wine Forum, or anything to that effect, simply because I would like to see a broader rather than more limited subject matter. In Rogov's day, for instance, there were contributors from many different nations, with many different backgrounds. There was not a tremendous amount of diversity, but there was enough that kosher only contributors could nevertheless gain from the interaction with non-kosher drinkers, and hopefully vice-versa as well. Which is one reason I like Yoel A's contributions so much, because he is developing that perspective which comes from tasting other wines as well as kosher or Israeli (at the same time, I have my own feelings on the propriety of drinking wines broadly like that, but those are religious views, not wine views). You see, another example of my immoderate nature.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

by Andrew B » Tue May 01, 2012 2:42 am

Craig Winchell wrote:But I do have a problem with calling it an Israeli and Kosher Wine Forum, or anything to that effect, simply because I would like to see a broader rather than more limited subject matter. In Rogov's day, for instance, there were contributors from many different nations, with many different backgrounds. There was not a tremendous amount of diversity, but there was enough that kosher only contributors could nevertheless gain from the interaction with non-kosher drinkers, and hopefully vice-versa as well.


I think that David's point was that those people were here for Rogov, and now that he's gone, we acknowledge what the forum is primarily used for now. so the forum would be KINO (Kosher in name only)
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

by YoelA » Tue May 01, 2012 3:05 am

I wasn't planning on entering this discussion, but Craig cited my name. I stated some time ago that this fofum was shifting heavily to kosher wines, and I still see that tendency (Yes there is some discussion of non-kosher Israeli wines and even a little bit of other non-kosher wines) (and, for the record - Craig - thanks for your appreciation about my "developing" a perspective of wines in general. As in other areas of life I am constantly learning - or at least trying to, but the fact is that I have been drinking wine - primarily non-kosher wine - longer than some people on this forum have been alive).

I don't have any strong feelings about the name either way, except to say that some connection with our founder should be retained, in his memory. The problem I see is that we do not have anyone here with a deep enough knowledge of wines in general and/or enough time to devote to reviewing wines full time to be able to engage in serious discussions of non-Israeli non-kosher wines like Rogov could carry out.
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Joel D Parker

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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

by Joel D Parker » Tue May 01, 2012 6:55 am

Hi guys, I'm okay with some minor tribute to the founder of this forum, and changing the name.

However, I actually think the simplest thing would be just to call it the "Kosher Corner" or something like that. In reality you guys primarily discuss kosher wines, unless by chance that brings you into non-kosher territory as a comparative study, or under the wider rubric of the technical and stylistic aspects of winemaking in general.

No one here really discusses Clos de Gat, Margalit or Lewinsohn unless these are mentioned in conjunction with defending the reputation of Israeli wine, and then mainly because Israel produces and exports a lion's share of the world's kosher wine.

I think if the forum were so named the 'Kosher Corner' or the like, forumites would be free to discuss the ins and outs of kashrut, although still within reason so as not to exclude those who are not experts in Orthodox Jewish law and non-Hebrew speakers.

Most of you guys who are the veterans here have already diversified your portfolio away from Israeli wines even as your main source for kosher wines. It would be more interesting to me if the forum were to abandon its country-specificness and focus on a category that is reasonably separate from wine in general. Discussing Israeli wine separately from non-kosher global wines doesn't make sense, unless one is indeed mainly interested in those wines which are kosher, as 99% of the contributors today are.

Plus it would be more honest, when the topics of discussion revolve around Jewish holidays half the time. That would be fair enough for a kosher forum, but not for an Israeli forum. There is no intrinsic connection between Israeli wine and kosher wine, since there is no law in the state of Israel that favors kosher wine over non-kosher wine (in general, that is). By giving preference to a specific group of producers you become subject to their commercial interests and may be unwittingly targeted for marketing purposes. Kosher wines can be produced anywhere by anyone with the appropriate knowledge and religious qualifications, and thus is not quite as easily subjected to marketers who are not really interested in a fair and critical discussion board here.

In sum, no topic currently discussed on the forum would be lost if it were to be an openly 'kosher' forum, but I believe some topics might be liberated and certain folks would feel freer to discuss them if it was all agreed upon that we're basically discussing kosher wine here. And I also do not think a moderator needs to 'have a foot' in non-kosher wines. It's not relevant, because if someone wants info on non-kosher wines there are a million places to look. You are a group of well-qualified guys who can push the kosher market to challenge itself on both the pricing/availability and the quality fronts, and that is really important for observant Jews around the world.

Best,

Joel
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Isi M

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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

by Isi M » Tue May 01, 2012 1:46 pm

I dont see any reason why to change or hijack Rogov's forum.
It was his idea, his project.
And I dont really see what is so "creeping" about that.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

by Yossie Horwitz » Tue May 01, 2012 2:16 pm

Maybe we just delete the reference to the moderator and change the two bylines (from the Wine and Food forums) from:

(1) Wine Critic Daniel Rogov hosts discussions about wines From Israel and the World

to

Discussions about wines from Israel and the World (or, something along those lines)

(2) Critic Daniel Rogov and friends discuss the Israeli and International dining scenes.

to

Discussions on the Israeli and International dining scenes (or, something along those lines).
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

by Adam M » Tue May 01, 2012 4:02 pm

Friends -

I think nearly everyone's comments so far bear some level of merit. I think the current name of the two forums which Rogov once moderated doesn't make sense in the long run, although eliminating Rogov's name altogether, after he put his heart and soul into this for so many years, also doesn't seem right.

So I would suggest the following, which is along the lines (at least in spirit, I think) of what Yossie submitted:

1. I would rename the section of these two forums as "The Kosher Food and Wine Exchange" (from "Rogov's Place"). I've gone back to all of the posts of both the food and wine forums since rogov's passing and over 95% of them discuss kosher topics. This reflects evolution, which is fine. It is what it is. It quacks like a duck and looks like a duck; which means it sure aint no swan! The name I suggest is simple yet to the point. I believe that it will be a magnat for other people around the world who share our interests and pleasures.

2. I would rename the wine forum "The Kosher Wine Forum" (from "Rogov's Wine Forum"). I'd also be happy with "The Kosher Wine Exchange" to maintain consistency with the name of the group of forums (in #1 above). Again, my thinking is that the name is directly to the point with the subject matter that is being discussed.

3. I would slightly tweak Yossie's suggestion of the description of the forum as follows: "The world's leading and most expansive kosher wine forum, founded by the late Daniel Rogov"

4. I would suggest changing the name of the food forum to "The Kosher Food Forum" or "The Kosher Food Exchange"

5. I would tweak Yossie's description of the food forum as follows" "Discussions on the Israeli and International dining scene, recipes and general foodie topics, founded by the late Daniel Rogov "

I think that it is important to have a moderator so that forumites have someone to go to to resolve issues and answer general questions, even if it's just administrative. I do not, however, think any of the regular forumites should be appointed to this post. Rather, I think that Robin Garr should be appointed to the post in a nominal and administrative capacity. This shouldn't affect the flow of the forum in any way. However, it will fill a void that presently doesn't make sense to have.
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Jonathan K

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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

by Jonathan K » Tue May 01, 2012 4:15 pm

My thoughts:

1. The forum needs to move on, the pinned topics at the top of the forum should be unpinned.
2. Tweaking the name is fine. Eliminating all reference to Rogov is not.
3. The forum needs a moderator. The only reason it has worked thus far without a moderator is because there is not much activity and certainly no growth.
4. It is unfair to dump moderation of this forum on Robin Garr, and even if he would do it nominally, the forum needs direction and somebody willing to take charge and encourage discussion.
5. I think David Raccah would be a good choice if he would do it.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

by Robin Garr » Tue May 01, 2012 4:41 pm

Jonathan K wrote:My thoughts:

1. The forum needs to move on, the pinned topics at the top of the forum should be unpinned.
2. Tweaking the name is fine. Eliminating all reference to Rogov is not.
3. The forum needs a moderator. The only reason it has worked thus far without a moderator is because there is not much activity and certainly no growth.
4. It is unfair to dump moderation of this forum on Robin Garr, and even if he would do it nominally, the forum needs direction and somebody willing to take charge and encourage discussion.
5. I think David Raccah would be a good choice if he would do it.

Hi, folks!

I am paying attention, but as always, would want to defer to the community wisdom of this group. The only issue, upon reading the good, friendly and robust debate that is taking place here, would be how we can discern when a consensus exists.

Although I may own and administer the overall forum structure, I don't want to have to suggest the Solomon solution ...

I'll continue to lurk in the background, but my suggestion is that the group try to find common ground, even if the various sides have to give a bit. Personally, I think Jonathan K's summation above makes a great deal of sense. Perhaps think about using David's suggestion as a base for further discussion, then tweak from there?

(For my part, I agree that this community was initially Rogov's concept, and he was its guru and leader. It is appropriate that his name be retained in some way, although doing so in the sub-heading rather than the forum name is fine with me, if that's the group's wish.

So, again, talk it through, take as much time as you need, but try to reach a final consensus in which everyone can claim at least a small stake. Let me know when you've got it, and I'll be happy to make it so.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

by Samuel A » Tue May 01, 2012 4:47 pm

I agree with Adam. There frankly isn't a forumite that has garnered the level of respect and leadership to lead this group.
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Yehoshua Werth

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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

by Yehoshua Werth » Tue May 01, 2012 5:08 pm

Agree no Leader at close to the staure of Rogov and his Name must remain.
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