The place for all things wine, focused on serious wine discussions.

Wine Making: Dirty First Racking

Moderators: Jenise, Robin Garr, David M. Bueker

no avatar
User

Dan Smothergill

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

729

Joined

Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:24 pm

Location

Syracuse, NY

Wine Making: Dirty First Racking

by Dan Smothergill » Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:59 am

Nothing salacious here Googlers; it's actually said to be a virtue. Dirty racking refers to the practice of leaving the "light" lees behind when racking after primary fermentation and stirring them up occasionally afterwards. Not until the final racking before filtering/bottling are they discarded. I've heard this technique advocated recently by several commercial wine makers as a method for improving mouth feel and rounding off wines that might otherwise be too acidic. One, in fact, who was trained in France said he couldn't believe to find when he first came to the US that it was not standard practice.

My question is how would a home winemaker working with 5 gallon carboys go about doing this with a white wine? Typically, on a a first racking there are lees that have more or less solidified at the bottom of the carboy along with other stuff that's floating around close to the bottom. Is it as simple as just keeping the latter? Does anyone out there do a dirty first racking? What has been your experience?
no avatar
User

Bruce Gutlove

Rank

Cellar rat

Posts

6

Joined

Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:02 pm

Location

Ashikaga, Japan

Re: Wine Making: Dirty First Racking

by Bruce Gutlove » Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:55 am

The mechanics are pretty much as you've described them, Dan.
Some people in commercial wineries get a bit more fussy, and do things like measure turbidities after racking, adding a bit more lees if they want to have a higher amount of lees in the racked wine.
But with practice you'll get a good sense of how much you want without worrying too much about numbers, etc.

As a technique it's quite recommendable if you want increased mouthfeel, less fruit and more complexity, and lower total SO2's in your wines.

If you want something fruit-forward, or are worried about the wine spoiling in the carboy (as can sometimes happen in home winemaking), a clean rack and a moderate level of SO2 addition may be better.
no avatar
User

Howie Hart

Rank

The Hart of Buffalo

Posts

6389

Joined

Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:13 pm

Location

Niagara Falls, NY

Re: Wine Making: Dirty First Racking

by Howie Hart » Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:53 am

I have heard of this, but never gave it much thought. Aside from fine tartrate crystals and dead yeast, what else is there in the fine lees? The only way I can think of that this would lower acidity is by encouraging M-L.
Chico - Hey! This Bottle is empty!
Groucho - That's because it's dry Champagne.
no avatar
User

Ben Rotter

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

295

Joined

Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:59 pm

Location

Sydney, Australia (currently)

Re: Wine Making: Dirty First Racking

by Ben Rotter » Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:25 am

Dan Smothergill wrote:after primary fermentation and stirring them up occasionally afterwards. Not until the final racking before filtering/bottling are they discarded. I've heard this technique advocated recently by several commercial wine makers as a method for improving mouth feel and rounding off wines that might otherwise be too acidic. One, in fact, who was trained in France said he couldn't believe to find when he first came to the US that it was not standard practice.


The practise of leaving the wine on its lees during elevage is "sur lees", and stirring it back up into the wine is simply referred to as "lees stirring". They'd be standard with big fat Chardonnays worldwide these days, though you're right that it took a while for the technique to migrate out of France.

Typically, on a a first racking there are lees that have more or less solidified at the bottom of the carboy along with other stuff that's floating around close to the bottom. Is it as simple as just keeping the latter? Does anyone out there do a dirty first racking? What has been your experience?


It's a matter of taking only "clean" lees (i.e., aromatically attractive, fine-sized lees devoid of fruit particulate matter - so not the stuff floating around in the bottom of the carboy) along in the racking.

This article may help:
http://www.brsquared.org/wine/ --> Articles --> Using Lees (Sur lie and bâtonnage)

HTH,

Ben
no avatar
User

Mike Filigenzi

Rank

Known for his fashionable hair

Posts

8187

Joined

Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:43 pm

Location

Sacramento, CA

Re: Wine Making: Dirty First Racking

by Mike Filigenzi » Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:25 pm

Nice article, Ben. Thanks for that.

FWIW, I've heard that you really must stir the lees frequently to help prevent H2S formation. We've not tried this as we've done red wines exclusively. But I like the character that sur lie aging seems to add, so I'd do it if it seemed appropriate for the wine.
"People who love to eat are always the best people"

- Julia Child
no avatar
User

Victorwine

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

2031

Joined

Thu May 18, 2006 9:51 pm

Re: Wine Making: Dirty First Racking

by Victorwine » Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:51 pm

Even in red wine production lees management is a very important step, especially if one wants MLF to go to completion. The fine lees left after primary fermentation acts as a nutrient for the ML bacteria.

BTW Thanks for the great article Ben, and congratulations Dan for your award wining wines.

Salute
no avatar
User

Dan Smothergill

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

729

Joined

Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:24 pm

Location

Syracuse, NY

Re: Wine Making: Dirty First Racking

by Dan Smothergill » Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:09 am

Ben:
It's a matter of taking only "clean" lees (i.e., aromatically attractive, fine-sized lees devoid of fruit particulate matter - so not the stuff floating around in the bottom of the carboy) along in the racking.


I was afraid of this. It puts me back at square one on just how to go about getting those good lees. As a practical matter, I can't measure in microns. Ben says to avoid what's floating around near the bottom. Might the solution be to do the racking very soon after primary fermentation while the various particulates still are in suspension. All the gunk at the bottom, the solids and floating jetsam, then could be discarded as usual. Somehow this seems too simple.

You're right Howie. The method isn't so much to reduce acidity. As Bruce says, it is for bringing about
increased mouthfeel, less fruit and more complexity, and lower total SO2's in your wines.


I suppose SO2 probelms can be avoided by keeping a watchful eye on how much is present.

congratulations Dan for your award wining wines

Thanks Victor. You never know how these things will go. I also entered a Chardonnay which seemed to me the best of my 2006's and possibly the best Chardonnay I've done. It got nothing! I'll be interested to read the judges' comments about it.
no avatar
User

Victorwine

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

2031

Joined

Thu May 18, 2006 9:51 pm

Re: Wine Making: Dirty First Racking

by Victorwine » Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:39 am

Dan wrote:
I suppose SO2 problems can be avoided by keeping a watchful eye on how much is present.

To this I would add the “length of time” you allow the wine to sit on these lees.

Salute
no avatar
User

Bruce Gutlove

Rank

Cellar rat

Posts

6

Joined

Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:02 pm

Location

Ashikaga, Japan

Re: Wine Making: Dirty First Racking

by Bruce Gutlove » Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:37 pm

Dan Smothergill wrote:Ben:

I was afraid of this. It puts me back at square one on just how to go about getting those good lees. As a practical matter, I can't measure in microns. Ben says to avoid what's floating around near the bottom. Might the solution be to do the racking very soon after primary fermentation while the various particulates still are in suspension. All the gunk at the bottom, the solids and floating jetsam, then could be discarded as usual. Somehow this seems too simple.


"Good lees" are lees that are good. It really is that simple.
A lot of great white Burgundy makers do minimal debourbage (clarification of pressed grape juice). They go right into barrel, ferment there, do their malos there, and then top the wines when they go quiet and leave the barrels on their lees for an extended period of time.
When the wines are finally racked (during blending just prior to bottling, for instance) there's a substantial amount of lees to be found in the bottoms of these barrels.

The process is pretty much based on experience, as with so much in winemaking.
Take a stab at it, going for the light and fluffies while leaving behind the heavy, gross lees. When the new wine (with fine lees) is in the new carboy, the lees will begin settling out. As Mike suggests, the lees can go "off" on you so you need to watch things. Most people will taste the lees and the supernatant to decide if anything needs to be done. Tasting the supernatant is a simple matter of sticking a thief or pipette into the carboy and drawing off a clear sample from near the top of the container. Tasting the lees requires just a little more work, but can be done with a siphon tube, holding a thumb over one end of the tube and inserting the other to the very bottom of the vessel. Once there, remove your thumb from the tube and proceed as you would a racking... the sample of wine that comes out will be from the bottom of the vessel, and high in lees. Taste it, smell it... does it smell OK? If so, then you've got good lees.
Stir the lees if you want more lees character distributed throughout the wine, or if you think the lees smells a little "off". Sometimes the stirring will refresh lees that are slightly off by providing a little more oxygen to the yeast that have fallen to the very reduced (oxygen deficient) bottom of the vessel.

If the lees smells too "off" you may need to rack the wine off these lees.

Lees "health" depends upon a variety of conditions and factors. With time you can learn if a certain batch of grapes from a certain vyd is prone to going stinky or not.
You can even work with these vyd sources that go "off" and figure out a way to make wines less prone to reduction and off aromas.
no avatar
User

Ben Rotter

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

295

Joined

Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:59 pm

Location

Sydney, Australia (currently)

Re: Wine Making: Dirty First Racking

by Ben Rotter » Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:36 pm

Glad the article was of interest to some of you.

Dan Smothergill wrote:I was afraid of this. It puts me back at square one on just how to go about getting those good lees. As a practical matter, I can't measure in microns. Ben says to avoid what's floating around near the bottom. Might the solution be to do the racking very soon after primary fermentation while the various particulates still are in suspension. All the gunk at the bottom, the solids and floating jetsam, then could be discarded as usual. Somehow this seems too simple.


Dan, don't worry, it is essentially pretty simple. As Bruce said, experience helps, and he offers good advice re tasting the wine. Only high-tech winemakers will use a nephelometer (to measure turbidity) - most would judge must lees based on debourbage timing and temperature, and wine lees quality based on tastings (which are all are based on experience of course).

I'd encourage you to try it and just pay attention to detail (organoleptic and visual lees quality). If you still have fruit debris present I'd suggest racking and retaining the fine lees. If it's difficult to separate them then you could fully stir the lees, wait 24 hrs (or until you see gross less with fruit debris settle out, but the bulk wine retain lees in suspension), then conduct a racking that avoids any deposited (gross) less. If you find the wine is showing reductive aromatics post-fermentation then you can perform a racking to oxygenate the wine slightly and/or remove some lees. In severe cases you can separate the lees portion of the wine and mature separately for a month before re-combining (this time allows the natural loss of sulfur reductase activity in the absence of the bulk).

I would stress, though, that sur lie ageing in carboy is NOT the same as in barrel (largely, commercial wineries do the latter). I'd recommend you watch the development of the wine closely as there's more chance for the wine to go overly reductive under glass. It can been done successfully, but I'd say it requires greater attention to detail and greater fine-tuning of the technique. Anyway, you learn best by experience, so go for it! HTH.


BTW, Mike, have you performed sur lie ageing with batonnage on any of your reds? I think it can really help their mouthfeel and complexity just as well as it can for whites.

Ben
no avatar
User

Mike Filigenzi

Rank

Known for his fashionable hair

Posts

8187

Joined

Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:43 pm

Location

Sacramento, CA

Re: Wine Making: Dirty First Racking

by Mike Filigenzi » Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:52 pm

Ben -

We've never done any sur lie aging of our reds. I like the idea, though, and I'll lobby our group to try it out this year.

One question - are there any lasting effects on the barrels used for this? I'm assuming there aren't if you clean them out well after use.

Thanks!
"People who love to eat are always the best people"

- Julia Child
no avatar
User

Bruce Gutlove

Rank

Cellar rat

Posts

6

Joined

Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:02 pm

Location

Ashikaga, Japan

Re: Wine Making: Dirty First Racking

by Bruce Gutlove » Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:22 pm

Mike Filigenzi wrote:Ben -

We've never done any sur lie aging of our reds. I like the idea, though, and I'll lobby our group to try it out this year.

One question - are there any lasting effects on the barrels used for this? I'm assuming there aren't if you clean them out well after use.

Thanks!


Mike:

It can be harder to clean out barrels where the wine was put down dirty.
I'm not sure what budget you have, but a pressure washer attached to high-end barrel washing spray ball (Gamajet's EZ-7 is very nice, but costs about $2,000 for the head alone) will do the job well.
If you're just "sloshing the barrels clean" or using a general, small diamater, ball bearing-based tank/barrel washer then you might have a hard time removing all the sediment, which could cause sanitary problems later on down the line.

You'll also probably lose at least some "oakiness" if you lees age, since some of those aroma and flavor compounds bind up with the lees and settle out. Whether this is a good thing or not depends upon stylistic goals. But, given the costs involved in using new wood for elevage it is something to keep in mind.
no avatar
User

Victorwine

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

2031

Joined

Thu May 18, 2006 9:51 pm

Re: Wine Making: Dirty First Racking

by Victorwine » Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:04 am

FWIW here is my regime;
Primary alcoholic fermentation takes place in my shed, in open vats, and lasts 10 to 14 days. (The vats are equipped with a screen and a spigot at the very bottom). The free-run juice is transferred into carboys, and the pomace is pressed. (Unless of course we decide to make a “second-run” then some of the pomace is set aside). The free-run juice is kept separate from the pressed-juice. The carboys are than allowed to stand for another10 to 15 days (so that secondary alcoholic fermentation can run its course, SG reaches .995). By this time a ‘large amount” of sediment forms at the bottom of the carboys and a 1st racking is conducted. Next the carboys are hand carried down to the basement (wine cellar) where they are allowed to rest for about one month. By this time a “decent amount” of (what I consider) “good or clean sediment” clings to the glass carboy or settles to the bottom. A 2nd “dirty” racking is then conducted and the wines are transferred into barrels. (BTW, everything is set up so that I can gently gravity rack, I don't use a pump).

Salute
no avatar
User

Dan Smothergill

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

729

Joined

Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:24 pm

Location

Syracuse, NY

Re: Wine Making: Dirty First Racking

by Dan Smothergill » Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:32 pm

My thanks to Ben, Bruce, Mike, and Victor for taking the time to explain. I didn't want to hector but did want to know. Now I can give dirty racking a try.

I'm thinking Cayuga might be a good candidate because mine often turns out listless. Maybe dirty racking would perk it up some. I'm tempted to try it on Dutchess too, a very unLabrusca-like Labrusca with a delicious lemony taste when it comes out well. It is unusually sensitive to oxidation however, which would increase the challenge. But what the heck. You've emboldened me!
no avatar
User

Howie Hart

Rank

The Hart of Buffalo

Posts

6389

Joined

Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:13 pm

Location

Niagara Falls, NY

Re: Wine Making: Dirty First Racking

by Howie Hart » Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:44 pm

Dan Smothergill wrote:
congratulations Dan for your award wining wines

Thanks Victor. You never know how these things will go. I also entered a Chardonnay which seemed to me the best of my 2006's and possibly the best Chardonnay I've done. It got nothing! I'll be interested to read the judges' comments about it.
Congratulations Dan. How true about not knowing what the judges think. I entered a few that I thought quite highly of, but I got skunked this year. Oh, well.
Chico - Hey! This Bottle is empty!
Groucho - That's because it's dry Champagne.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: APNIC Bot, ClaudeBot and 4 guests

Powered by phpBB ® | phpBB3 Style by KomiDesign