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Another annoying newb question

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Re: Another annoying newb question

by David M. Bueker » Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:59 am

The growers knew it was Carmenere long before they were allowed to have it on wine labels (apparently by both the Chilean and US governments).
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Re: Another annoying newb question

by Oliver McCrum » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:39 am

Michael Pronay wrote:Just my 2¢:

What happened in Chile — merlot being discovered as carmenère — also happened in northern Italy, albeit on a much smaller (and much less publicized) base, and not with merlot, but cabernet franc.

Maurizio Zanella from Cà del Bosco in Lombardia ordered cabernet franc from an Italian and a French nursery. Quite obviously, they were not the same. In a kind of pre-court settlement all parties agreed on Pierre Galet, the ampelographist guru from University of Montpellier, as referee. He identified the Italian version as being carmenère.

There is already one minor Italian DOC that specificly names carmenère as authorized variety, but I don't remember the name.

Maurizio Zanella, btw, chose to bottle the Italian version separately as vino da tavola and called it "Carmeneto".


Michel,

Almost all the 'Cabernet Franc' in Friuli is in fact Carmenere. I rather like the better examples, but it's weedier than CF.
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Re: Another annoying newb question

by Bob Ross » Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:46 am

Randy, we resolved the problem -- the site went from a five character to six character password during my subscription period, so that I was locked out -- the user name was taken -- by me, of course -- but I couldn't access it. Small systems hitch. :(

In any event, here's what Jancis contributes to the story:


Now that Chile has established that the majority of vines it used to call Merlot are in fact the old Bordeaux variety Carmenère, I have been wondering where exactly Carmenère is to be found in Bordeaux today. We know it was much more widely planted before the arrival of phylloxera than it is today but until very recently I have never heard anyone even mention it in Bordeaux.

I was interested therefore to hear Hervé Berland when presenting a recent tasting of his company’s wines, Ch Mouton Rothschild et al, in London let slip that at its more serious sister property, fifth growth Pauillac Ch Clerc Milon, about one per cent of the vines in the vineyard are Carmenère.

Ever fascinated by which grape varieties grow where, I’d be grateful for information on any other Bordeaux properties which claim to grow Carmenère. To my knowledge its chief stronghold in modern Europe is north east Italy .


If anyone would like to help Jancis out, you can reach her here:

http://www.jancisrobinson.com/static/contact

PS: In her OCW3, she writes:

Carmenère

sometimes spelt Carménère and Carmenere, is rarely acknowledged in the vineyards of Bordeaux today but was, according to Daurel, widely cultivated in the Médoc in the early 18th century and, with Cabernet Franc, established the reputations of its best properties. He reports that the vine is vigorous and used to produce exceptionally good wine but was abandoned because of its susceptibility to coulure and resultant low yields. Its name may well be related to the word ‛carmine‚ and even today it yields small quantities of exceptionally deep-coloured, full-bodied wines and may even be, like petit verdot, the subject of a revival. (Ch Clerc Milon, Pauillac classed growth, admits to its presence in their encepagement and the odd varietal emerged on to the Bordeaux market in the early 2000s.)


Its new power base is chile, where, it was discovered in 1994, a substantial proportion of the vines previously believed to be Merlot are in fact this historic variety, presumably imported directly from Bordeaux in the late 19th century. It ripens even later than Cabernet Sauvignon and if yields are limited, by grafting on to low-vigour rootstocks, for example, has the potential to make very fine wines, combining some of the charm of Merlot with the structure of Cabernet Sauvignon. Excessive herbaceousness can sometimes dominate its ripe tomato-like flavours but the Chileans had already acknowledged that at least 6,000 ha/14,825 acres of their vines were Carmenère by 2004. More than 4,000 ha of vines previously thought to be cabernet franc in northern Italy have also been identified as Carmenère, which may not be produced as a varietal DOC, DOCG, or IGT wine but may be used for blending in Veneto, Trentino, and Friuli. Ca‚del Bosco of Lombardia make a sturdy, robustly-priced varietal called Carmenero from it.
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Re: Another annoying newb question

by Hoke » Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:27 pm

David M. Bueker wrote:The growers knew it was Carmenere long before they were allowed to have it on wine labels (apparently by both the Chilean and US governments).


Okay, I was involved with this at the time, with Carmen Vineyards (as the importer).

Alvaro Espinosa, the winemaker, was one of the primary guys driving the recognition of Carmenere, and was involved with the French ampelographic team that actually declared the grape was Carmenere rather than Merlot.

The telltale visual difference betwen Carmenere and Merlot is in the color of the leaves at certain times. Alvaro had a prime vineyard which was primarily responsible for a fantastic, award-winning Reserve Merlot. He knew he had different grapes, and lobbied for recognition as such. As David said, both the Chilean government and the US government were reluctant to recognize---the Chileans because they didn't want to upset their Merlot cart, since Merlot was leading their quality and quantity charge at the time; the US just because they are reluctant to recognize anything new.

Alvaro made the first "Carmenere" (actually, a Carmenere/Cabernet blend)---but was not allowed to call it Carmenere. So we did an end run by submitting the wine as "Grande Vidure-Cabernet". [Grande Vidure is an alternate name for Carmenere in Bordeaux, just as Petite Vidure is an alternate name for Cabernet Franc]. Guess the authorities simply didn't recognize what we were doing, or didn't realize that Grande Vidure was a varietal name because it wasn't well known. Anyway, it was allowed in, so we imported a few thousand cases. Eventually, a couple of years later, Carmenere was officially recognized and became legal on the label.

So the first "Carmenere" to come into the country came from the 1995 vintage. And it was pretty damned good too. We sold out pretty quickly.
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Re: Another annoying newb question

by Bob Ross » Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:36 pm

Great story, Hoke. I see that Robin reviewed the 1996 of this wine in 1998:

http://www.wineloverspage.com/wines/wt072198.shtml

Ah, and the 1995 vintage as well:

http://www.wineloverspage.com/wines/chile.htm
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Re: Another annoying newb question

by Marc D » Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:45 pm

Oliver McCrum wrote:
Michael Pronay wrote:Just my 2¢:

What happened in Chile — merlot being discovered as carmenère — also happened in northern Italy, albeit on a much smaller (and much less publicized) base, and not with merlot, but cabernet franc.

Maurizio Zanella from Cà del Bosco in Lombardia ordered cabernet franc from an Italian and a French nursery. Quite obviously, they were not the same. In a kind of pre-court settlement all parties agreed on Pierre Galet, the ampelographist guru from University of Montpellier, as referee. He identified the Italian version as being carmenère.

There is already one minor Italian DOC that specificly names carmenère as authorized variety, but I don't remember the name.

Maurizio Zanella, btw, chose to bottle the Italian version separately as vino da tavola and called it "Carmeneto".


Michel,

Almost all the 'Cabernet Franc' in Friuli is in fact Carmenere. I rather like the better examples, but it's weedier than CF.


I've tasted one version, a Veneto Rosso called Bradisismo that is a Cabernet Sauvignon/Carmenere blend from Inama. It was pretty tasty stuff, and the Carmenere influence did remind me of Cab Franc.
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Re: Another annoying newb question

by Hoke » Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:59 pm

Bob Ross wrote:Great story, Hoke. I see that Robin reviewed the 1996 of this wine in 1998:

http://www.wineloverspage.com/wines/wt072198.shtml

Ah, and the 1995 vintage as well:

http://www.wineloverspage.com/wines/chile.htm


Ah. Very interesting. Thank you for digging those up, Bob.

FYI, even though I was in Louisville at the time, and managing the brand, I never saw these notes. Didn't know Robin at the time (although of course I knew of him). And I didn't get involved on the WLDG until I moved to California.

He was correct, by the way, on giving somewhat better marks to the 1995 over the 1996.
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Re: Another annoying newb question

by Paul Winalski » Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:30 pm

Liz Gray wrote:Is there any particular rule that states the Cab Sav and Merlot grapes have to be the two major grapes in any Bordeaux red? What happens if one were to increase, say, the Petit Verdot to where there's more Petit Verdot than the Merlot? What attributes do the Petit Verdot, Malbec, Cab Franc and Carmenere possess that causes them to be used so infrequently in comparison to the Merlot and Cab Sav?


No, there is no rule governing the proportions of the allowed grapes. It's up to each individual winemaker, and it varies from year to year at the same chateau. The final blend depends on a lot of factors, such as success of the harvest (if the rains come before the cabernet sauvignon ripens, for example, the blend might be heavy on the merlot or cabernet franc), and on what style the winemaker is aiming for.

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