Wine Sites Pimping for Dollars - eGullet

Don't know if the denizens of this board always appreciate the more or less ad free environment here.

I post as much to archive my own notes as anything else, and I post on several sites as a back-up in case one goes down or loses old notes. One of these is Egullet.

They have gone for a rather silly and very annoying method of subsidizing their site - they sell Amazon the right to access and link anything there.

So if you use any words that Amazons search engine recognizes, it creates a link to some product on their site, normally nothing to do with wine. Pass your mouse pointer over the links and popups assail you with schlock.

I had the temerity to post on their wine page questioning this practice and had my post immediately removed without any note to me, and was later directed to some dead zone that no one goes to where discussions of that sort are allowed - except no one knows where it is, so no one posts there.

Scratch one site I will be posting on in future.

Robin, thanks for avoiding garbage like this!

I stopped frequenting eGullet quite some time ago after having been a member and contributor there almost since the beginning. They got a bit too... hmmm... something for my taste. Serious? Self-righteous? Pompous? Pretentious? Greedy?

Well, something along those lines anyway!

Never heard of them so just lurked there. Do not think I need revisit!

eGullet has problems well beyond the commercial. The degree to which the people in charge tried to shape, or edit, or recast the discussion for their own aggrandizement was really unusual. It's a hard thing to follow retrospectively if you didn't see the posts disappear, or the people get banned, or what have you. The evidence is mostly gone.

Many of their most prolific and most interesting posters scattered to a few sites, the secret Steve board (OA), http://www.mouthfulsfood.com/forums/
the secret Pim board (NIAC), and so on. Some have their own [url="http://tarelki.typepad.com/"]blogs[/url] now.

There aren't many public resources about the goings on, but one spot for those with vast quantities of time on their hands might be:
http://mouthfulsfood.com/forums//index. ... topic=8603

[Robin Garr]

thanks for avoiding garbage like this!

Bill, thank you for evoking the title of our New Content And Media Partner, GARBAGE.COM! For only US$12 per month - or a mere $100 a year for an extended contract, you can have all the garbage you can eat delivered directly to your door! But wait! There's more! ...

Seriously, though, in fairness it should be noted that WineLoversPage.com is my day job, and while I try to keep the forum area reasonably ad-clutter-free because of its community nature, we do have regular advertising partners, use Google AdSense links and have had affiliate programs with Amazon.com and Wine-Searcher.com since both of those organizations first launched. It IS possible to fork over a little cash to our partners in ways that help keep this place afloat, and in all candor, this operation is my day job and has to pay the rent.

So it wouldn't be entirely appropriate for me to take credit for being "non-commercial." I do try to be discreet, though, and hope folks who enjoy these communities and publications will express their gratefulness by supporting our advertisers and using our links to buy all manner of wonderful things.

Robin, do you get credit if I use the links but don't buy?

[Robin Garr]

Robin, do you get credit if I use the links but don't buy?

Depends, Jon.

Amazon.com links only pay a commission if you make a purchase.

Wine-Searcher.com and Google AdSense links pay per click.

Advertising banners on WineLoversPage content pages don't pay per se, but of course our advertisers like it when people visit their sites.

Bottom line, though, there's nothing more pathetic (or sleazy) than a Webmeister who begs insiders to click ads on the site just to inflate click-through rates, and I really wouldn't want to suggest that. We have plenty of legitimate traffic, so I'd rather invite participants to express their thanks by using our Amazon.com links if they intend to buy a book from Amazon; use our Wine-Searcher links if you really want to look up a wine price, and so on.

I only ask, Robin, because I've always wondered how it works. Thanks for the straightforward information.

[Robin Garr]

I only ask, Robin, because I've always wondered how it works. Thanks for the straightforward information.

I hope I didn't come across as jumping down your throat, Jon. I saw an opportunity to utter a sermon to the choir, and took it.

But Robin, it's not just the ad-free aspect that appeals so strongly about the WLDG in comparison to sites like the current incarnation of eGullet. It's the very real sense of community here. This is not a place for cliques or elitist attitudes or posturing. Two of the most valuable attributes of your/our home on the Web is a sense of inclusiveness and humo(u)r.

But Robin, it's not just the ad-free aspect that appeals so strongly about the WLDG in comparison to sites like the current incarnation of eGullet. It's the very real sense of community here. This is not a place for cliques or elitist attitudes or posturing. Two of the most valuable attributes of your/our home on the Web is a sense of inclusiveness and humo(u)r.

Yeah, what what's her name said

Robin, I am getting ready to buy two books. Do I have to go to the WLDG home to find the Amazon link?

[James Roscoe]

Damn! We're not elitist and cliquey?!!!

Damn! We're not elitist and cliquey?!!!

Hey, they let you and me stay.... QED!

[Robin Garr]

Two of the most valuable attributes of your/our home on the Web is a sense of inclusiveness and humo(u)r.

Well, that, and the monthly f@rting contests.

[Robin Garr]

Robin, I am getting ready to buy two books. Do I have to go to the WLDG home to find the Amazon link?

That's probably the easiest way, Thomas. (Uh, the http://www.WineLoversPage.com home page, that is. There's no Amazon link on the WLDG start page.) You can click through to any Amazon link you see anywhere on the site, including those posted in occasional book-review articles in the <I>Wine Advisor</I> archive or on the forum, or on the front page, or on a little experimental "Amazon Bookstore" page at
http://www.wineloverspage.com/winebook/quickbooks.phtml
which is a pretty handy way to look for wine-and-food books.

To make a long story short, as long as you reach Amazon.com initially from any of those links, and make any purchase during the same session (don't leave Amazon and then come back), we get a little credit for it. And if you click through to a specific book or product we have listed and buy that, we get a little more credit for that.

[Robin Garr]

Hey, they let you and me stay.... QED!

Hey! Don't let the cat out of the bag, or the "don't ask, don't tell" policy clicks in.

... if you use any words that Amazons search engine recognizes, it creates a link to some product on their site... Pass your mouse pointer over the links and popups assail you ...
I had the temerity to post on their wine page questioning this practice and had my post immediately removed without any note to me, and was later directed to some dead zone ...

Half or 2/3 of what I post on eGullet is references to food or wine literature; these cause many (sometimes unintentionally funny, and rarely relevant) of those amazon name-recognition links. Sometimes I mention a book, and an amazon link appears but not to the same book.

But Bill, there was lots of discussion (including criticism) of that gimmick on eG, it was in another forum that carries discussions of the site itself. (Starting many months ago, when the gimmick began.) eG's moderators are sometimes particular about keeping discussions in the right forum.

eGullet has problems well beyond the commercial. The degree to which the people in charge tried to shape, or edit, or recast the discussion for their own aggrandizement was really unusual. It's a hard thing to follow retrospectively if you didn't see the posts disappear, or the people get banned ... The evidence is mostly gone. Many of their most prolific and most interesting posters scattered to a few sites ...

This thread fairly summarizes complaints evident (online and in person) about eG, its weaknesses, and the sites its former posters went to, in its six-year history. (eG has been characterized in turn as a spin-off from Chowhound, which is strongly restaurant-focused.) In case it wasn't clear already, departures SFJoe described have been ongoing for some years (they were especially visible around 2004-05).

Amid all this, it's worth keeping in mind that eG and other sites, with their various limitations, continue to draw valuable discussions and contributors, which are their main assets. It's easy to forget that, when seeing objectionable behavior by site personnel. You might say such behavior -- driving away Bill Spohn, in this instance -- itself illustrates the point (forgetting how important the contributors are to the site).

I joined eG ... posted a review ... posted a question ... and was immediately castigated and the post moved or deleted by one of the moderators. As a longtime moderator of many forums, long before these people knew what the Internet was, believe me, they don't act in a very sympathetic manner.

Exactly (eG followed 20 years of vigorous and valuable public Internet food fora, both open and moderated -- maybe you participated, Randy -- an eG founder who did know about them acknowledged one such forum as the "grand-daddy" of all food sites today, including eG). And if moderators now do things that reasonable people question, they do it despite 25 years' archival Internet advice on forum-moderation practice, available to anyone who wants to learn. (It's among the most documented angles of online communication.)

Also: Though SFJoe rightly explained that a newcomer wouldn't see the disappeared posts, people indignantly leaving, etc., still those things occurred publicly, seen by many at the time, sometimes also by archive crawlers, etc. When a forum tries to suppress its own history, that just underlines the history to witnesses, even inflates its significance.

Today, people who post serious content also often blog -- as in this complaint from a former, respected Chowhound contributor. (Comments posted to the blog appear below.)