The place for all things wine, focused on serious wine discussions.

POLL! Which French region has Grand Cru correct?

Moderators: Jenise, Robin Garr, David M. Bueker

Which French region has the best system for Grand Cru designation? WHY???

Bordeaux -Medoc
3
15%
Bordeaux -St-Emilion
0
No votes
Burgundy
13
65%
Alsace
0
No votes
Scrap it -Grand Cru doesn't matter
4
20%
 
Total votes : 20
no avatar
User

Bill Hooper

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

2001

Joined

Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:46 am

Location

McMinnville, OR

POLL! Which French region has Grand Cru correct?

by Bill Hooper » Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:46 am

With all of this talk of French AOC reform, I've been thinking a lot about the current Grand Cru system in place there. The big four regions that designate Grands Crus are Alsace, Bordeaux, Burgundy, and Champagne (whose GC/PC system is loosely in line with Burgundy, but doesn’t have as much bearing on this argument.) Each has a very unique way to go about it.

The top 61 estates of the Médoc are classified by a hierarchy based on historical quality and significance. The properties themselves are rated 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th growth.
The advantage to this system is that each Chateau is (or rather was) judged on the quality of the wines it produces, instead of relying on the prestige of a single vineyard with disregard for the actual quality of the wine produced instead of just the perception or potential of its greatness. Certainly there are major geologic phenomenons at play here as well, but the differences tend to be more drastic from sub-appellation to sub appellation instead of property to property. Despite the classification of the Chateaux, the market still has the final say in Bordeaux with 3rd or fourth growths not uncommonly selling for more than some 2nd growths. There are also some excellent values to be found from ‘over-performing’ 2-5th growths.

St-Emilion is very different and should be considered separately. It is broken up into: Premiers Grands Crus Classés, Grands Crus Classés, and Grand Cru and are theoretically reclassified (promoted and demoted) based on quality by a tasting panel every decade. The major problem here is that while the first two designations can actually be seen as a benchmark for quality, the third 'Grand Cru' designation is so watered down (and often includes hundreds of Chateaux) that it has effectively lost all meaning for quality.

Burgundy (sans Beaujolais) is broken up into Chablis, the Côtes de Nuits, Côte de Beaune, Côte Chalonnais, and the Mâconnais. The system here has everything to do with geography. Along the almost continuous slope that is Burgundy are a few thousand vineyards. At the top end, they are classified by the unique soil, climate and exposure to the sun caused by various faults, prehistoric mountain building, ancient sea deposits, and erosion. The vineyard temperatures, drainage, and frost protection vary greatly and the vineyards are classified by their potential to produce great wines. The best are classified Grands Crus and can be found in Chablis, the Côte de Nuits and the Côte de Beaune. The 2nd tier are Premiers Crus, found in Chablis, the Côte de Nuits, Côte de Beaune, and the Côte Chalonnais. These are primarily made up of vineyards situated on the sweet spot of the Cote, not too high up on the crown, and not too low down on the plains.
Burgundy also classifies it’s vineyards by vine-type and with very few weird exceptions (like Corton-Charlemagne/Le Corton Blanc) the Grands Crus are either Pinot Noir OR Chardonnay, not both. The advantage of the Burgundy system is that nature, vintage, and the ‘Grace of God’. These vineyards have proven themselves capable of extremely high quality over the course of history.
The disadvantage of Burgundy is that because so many producers own vines in so many vineyards (Grand and 1er Cru included), the quality can vary tremendously -hence the Bourgogne reputation of being a crap-shoot.

Alsace has taken a bit of a ‘me too’ approach to the Grands Crus. There are now 51 of them with the recent addition of part of the Kaefferkopf vineyard, arguably one of the top vineyards in Alsace. The Grand Cru movement in Alsace was set up, like that in the rest of France, to showcase her top vineyards based roughly on the same criteria as that in Burgundy. There is much historical precedent here as many of the Grand Cru vineyards have been recognized for their quality since the middle ages. Only certain vine types are allowed to use the Grand Cru designation in all vineyards (Riesling, Muscat, Pinot Gris, and Gewurztraminer, with Sylvaner being granted Grand Cru status only in the Zotzenberg vineyard.) There has been some well-publicized reluctance to the Grand Cru designation in Alsace, mainly from bigger merchants like Hugel and Trimbach (who makes one of the finest wines in the world from within the Rosacker Grand Cru, the Clos Ste. Hune Riesling, although there is no mention of GC), and also from Domaine Marcel Deiss, who fought successfully to include blends for Grand Cru vineyards.
The advantage to the Alsatian version is that the wealth is spread out more democratically between growers. Because the market still has the final word, you can often pick up a Grand Cru wine from Alsace for less than 20 USD, sometimes of very good quality. The disadvantages are that there is no Premier Cru vineyard designation in Alsace, and many of the Grand Cru vineyards have proven inferior to ‘ordinary’ lieu-dits. Grand Cru is not a guarantee of quality in Alsace.

SOOOO...I’m curious to know which system you find more appealing, either in relation to quality or ease of understanding or in combination. Or doesn’t it matter? Should the whole notion of Grand and Premier Cru just be thrown out the friggin’ window? Why/why not?

Thanks,
-Bill
Wein schenkt Freude
ITB paetrawine.com
no avatar
User

Mark Lipton

Rank

Oenochemist

Posts

4285

Joined

Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:18 pm

Location

Indiana

Re: POLL! Which French region has Grand Cru correct?

by Mark Lipton » Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:22 am

Bill Hooper wrote:
The advantage to this system is that each Chateau is (or rather was) judged on the quality of the wines it produces, instead of relying on the prestige of a single vineyard with disregard for the actual quality of the wine produced instead of just the perception or potential of its greatness.


Bill,
My understanding of the 1855 classification system was that it was based on reputation and historical selling prices obtained by Brokers for the wines rather than some perception of quality per se. One could argue that selling price may have been the best quantitation of perceived quality, but it sounds to me more like popularity was being judged. And one only has to look at the Billboard charts to realize that popularity and quality aren't usually synonymous.

Mark Lipton
no avatar
User

Tim York

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

4925

Joined

Tue May 09, 2006 2:48 pm

Location

near Lisieux, France

Re: POLL! Which French region has Grand Cru correct?

by Tim York » Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:05 am

The definition of "grand cru" is a mess but I would be loath to see any attempt in France to impose a national "grand cru" system and, indeed, I think that it is politically impossible given the legal challenges against attempted change for Saint-Emilion and Médoc Crus Bougeois.

The Burgundy system is undoubtedly the most rationally connected to terroir, although there are some anomalies, e.g. parts of Clos Vougeot. I think that the Alsace system attempts to do the same, but more controversially. Similar classification used to exist of German terroirs under the Prussians (many of us have been shown old coloured maps by proud present day owners of then favoured plots) but this has no official validity under the existing wine law.

I have an affection for the Médoc and Sauternes system but it is not nearly so clearly connected to terroir. (I think that Mark is right in saying that it was originally linked to selling prices). Châteaux are really brands and there is nothing to prevent, say, Château Latour including wine from any plot in Pauillac in its 1er Grand Cru classé grand vin. I think that an update using the original method would have a certain validity (e.g. Palmer would be promoted) but it is politically impossible.

It is a pity that the 1855 classification did not cover Pessac-Léognan, Saint-Emilion and Pomerol as well, but in those days only Médoc and Sauternes plus Château Haut-Brion counted.

The Saint-Emilion and Médoc crus bourgeois classifications are both messes and I have to go to my reference books to understand the Graves classification.

I do hope that no other wine regions try to confuse people further by making official classifications.
Tim York
no avatar
User

David M. Bueker

Rank

Riesling Guru

Posts

34367

Joined

Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:52 am

Location

Connecticut

Re: POLL! Which French region has Grand Cru correct?

by David M. Bueker » Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:00 am

Key to the question is "system." There's nothing about whether or not they implemented it correctly. :wink:

Burgundy has a good system, such as it is, but therre are always questions about sites that do/do not merit Grand Cru, and of course someone can charge $350 for Ruchottes-Chambertin that has been poorly vinified.

There is no perfect system if it does not include a true evaluation of the wines to see if they merit their classification, and not by some government tasting panel, but rather by people who actually know what they are drinking. f course that will never happen, but I think it's still good to know which sites have the highest potential to produce great wine.
Decisions are made by those who show up
no avatar
User

David Creighton

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

1217

Joined

Wed May 24, 2006 10:07 am

Location

ann arbor, michigan

Re: POLL! Which French region has Grand Cru correct?

by David Creighton » Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:37 am

its one thing to dis champagne; but quite another to ignore it altogether.
david creighton
no avatar
User

Dale Williams

Rank

Compassionate Connoisseur

Posts

11147

Joined

Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:32 pm

Location

Dobbs Ferry, NY (NYC metro)

Re: POLL! Which French region has Grand Cru correct?

by Dale Williams » Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:52 am

I voted for Burgundy, as most logical to me. Certainly not a perfect system- poor producers can make horrible wines in even best terroirs. And few Burgheads would argue that Amoureuses is a poorer terroir than Chapelle-Chamb, Corton, or lower part of CdV. But similarly, how many Bordeaux fans if given the option wouldn't take a Lynch-Bages from the 70s or 80s over the same vintage's Rauzan Gassies or Durfort Vivens?At least in Burgundy the terroir is a constant that is being judged (correctly or incorrectly). One then factors in the producer.
no avatar
User

James Roscoe

Rank

Chat Prince

Posts

11014

Joined

Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:43 pm

Location

D.C. Metro Area - Maryland

Re: POLL! Which French region has Grand Cru correct?

by James Roscoe » Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:47 am

Should any of it matter? Having never tasted Grand Cru Burgundy, I really shouldn't vote. I have never had much classified Medoc either. It all seems silly to me. Why should I care what a panel of tasters thinks anyway? Isn't it MY palate that matters? :roll:
Yes, and how many deaths will it take 'til he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
no avatar
User

Bob Parsons Alberta

Rank

aka Doris

Posts

10775

Joined

Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:09 pm

Re: POLL! Which French region has Grand Cru correct?

by Bob Parsons Alberta » Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:52 am

Bill wrote....Grand Cru is not a guarantee of quality in Alsace.

Very true, on infrequent visits to the area, and tasting here and there, I have witnessed this first hand!! On my first visit to see Johnny Hugel in the early 90s, his anti grand cru chat convinced me!!
no avatar
User

David Creighton

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

1217

Joined

Wed May 24, 2006 10:07 am

Location

ann arbor, michigan

Re: POLL! Which French region has Grand Cru correct?

by David Creighton » Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:19 pm

ummm - james --- if yours is the only taste that matters why are you reading ANY of this?
david creighton
no avatar
User

David M. Bueker

Rank

Riesling Guru

Posts

34367

Joined

Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:52 am

Location

Connecticut

Re: POLL! Which French region has Grand Cru correct?

by David M. Bueker » Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:26 pm

Champagne is an interesting point, though since their classification does not really influence the marketing of the wines I can understand the snub.
Decisions are made by those who show up
no avatar
User

David Creighton

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

1217

Joined

Wed May 24, 2006 10:07 am

Location

ann arbor, michigan

Re: POLL! Which French region has Grand Cru correct?

by David Creighton » Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:20 pm

the grand cru and even premier cru designation does influence the marketing of the wines of champagne - at least for the RM producers. at least they give those words some prominance on their labels.
david creighton
no avatar
User

James Roscoe

Rank

Chat Prince

Posts

11014

Joined

Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:43 pm

Location

D.C. Metro Area - Maryland

Re: POLL! Which French region has Grand Cru correct?

by James Roscoe » Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:02 pm

David Creighton wrote:ummm - james --- if yours is the only taste that matters why are you reading ANY of this?

Partly to annoy Robin.... :mrgreen:
Yes, and how many deaths will it take 'til he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
no avatar
User

Bill Hooper

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

2001

Joined

Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:46 am

Location

McMinnville, OR

Re: POLL! Which French region has Grand Cru correct?

by Bill Hooper » Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:54 pm

David Creighton wrote:the grand cru and even premier cru designation does influence the marketing of the wines of champagne - at least for the RM producers. at least they give those words some prominance on their labels.


I didn't really want to snub Champagne, for I love her! I don't think though that anyone here would vote that the echelle des crus would be the best or 'correct' system for broad Grand Cru usage. It is such a totally different system and wouldn't work anywhere else in France. I hope you're not mad David! :D
Wein schenkt Freude
ITB paetrawine.com
no avatar
User

David Creighton

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

1217

Joined

Wed May 24, 2006 10:07 am

Location

ann arbor, michigan

Re: POLL! Which French region has Grand Cru correct?

by David Creighton » Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:42 am

don't worry, bill; i won't pull a 'chef' on you. (are we locked yet?)
david creighton
no avatar
User

Bill Hooper

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

2001

Joined

Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:46 am

Location

McMinnville, OR

Re: POLL! Which French region has Grand Cru correct?

by Bill Hooper » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:24 pm

Hmmm. Zero votes for Alsace. No surprise there.
Wein schenkt Freude
ITB paetrawine.com
no avatar
User

Rahsaan

Rank

Wild and Crazy Guy

Posts

9234

Joined

Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:20 pm

Location

New York, NY

Re: POLL! Which French region has Grand Cru correct?

by Rahsaan » Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:47 am

I voted for Burgundy, for many of the reasons already mentioned on this thread.

Even if Burgundy may not have Grand Cru "correct" - it does seem like the most logical system with some rational evaluation of the potential of the site.

Bordeaux may approximate that, but from a less rational evaluation.

I know, I shouldn't use the word "rational" for any of this. Forgive me! :D

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google IPMatch, Majestic-12 [Bot] and 1 guest

Powered by phpBB ® | phpBB3 Style by KomiDesign