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Is a $250 bottle of wine 10 times better than a $25 bottle?

Yes, most assuredly.
8
17%
No, not at all.
21
44%
Perhaps, but I can't afford to find out.
19
40%
 
Total votes : 48
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TimMc

Re: Would you pay $500 dollars for a bottle of wine?

by TimMc » Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:47 pm

JoePerry wrote:Tim, you're making the common mistake of assuming wine is a simple product of its parts. As I've said before, it's more than the sum of its parts.

Of course, I can only assume that you consider an original Ansel Adams print to be worth the same as something taken by yours truly on my last trip to the mall. They are, after all, the same product with similar costs.

Since we are speaking of the cost of making wine with such authority, can you tell me how much this project cost? Taking in to account not just expenses but also effort and risk...

http://www.mascarello1881.com/text1/PROGETTO.html

Best,
Joe[/i]


Joe,

No mistake made here, my friend.

With all due respect, if that is what you believe about me then you would be wrong.

To even suggest that I think that what something cost 60 years ago when Ansel Adams created it, or [more to the point] when you created it later on, is worth the same is nothing less than an insult to my sensibilities. I sincerely hope you didn't mean it. If you did, I accept your apology in advance.

As to the actual cost of the making, cellaring, bottling and sale of wine, please refer to the article I referenced in my first post.

As to the relative value of a bottle of wine vs. the need to make big giant bunches of money...I will refer you to the concept of greed.


$27 bucks is a far cry from $500 dollars....don't you think?
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Re: Would you pay $500 dollars for a bottle of wine?

by Manuel Camblor » Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:03 am

Dale,

If Léoville-Poyferré had been the only one, or one of a few, in Bordeaux to have changed their styles in a move toward the Dark Side, I wouldn't complain. What the hell. You lose one, you'll eventually win another, tight? But we're talking about most of Bordeaux having actually transformed into something unrecognizable as Bordeaux for those of us who grew up on the stuff. I have yet to come across a sample, but I hear the latest fashion victim has been my beloved Domaine de Chevalier. When a Graves that used to be of such lovely (if rather stern when young) purity and authenticity goes purple-and-jammy, you know something's really wrong.

Of course, here we're talking about low to mid-range Bordeaux. Then there's the other stuff, that;'s been priced the hell out of the range of so many of us...

And you've probably come across one of those "Spain is dead to me" spiels I've been giving lately... Houses that I knew and trusted in Rioja, which produced some amazingly fine, deep and ageworthy wines (CVNE, Bodegas Riojanas, Marqués de Murrieta) have gone the purple stuff and new oak way. Sure, the prices still remain reasonable on some of the wines, but who cares? They're not themselves anymore.

I believe I have a right to feel somewhat betrayed by the producers who go bimboistic, who "modernize" simply because "that's what needs to be done in the interest of some putative bottom line established by a board of directors which only drinks beer or Diet Coke". I refuse to take the cynical view that it's only business, if art falls by the wayside in the process. And I refuse to just shrug my shoulders and move on to "whatever's next" after a favorite brand has succumbed to the siren call of fahsion and bullshit. Because, you know, "whatever's next" may eventually hear the call. And then who knows what happens?

And if you think I'm extreme about wine, you should see me go on about music...
Last edited by Manuel Camblor on Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Would you pay $500 dollars for a bottle of wine?

by Paul B. » Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:32 am

Manuel Camblor wrote:I feel I have a right to feel somewhat betrayed by the producers who go bimboistic, who "modernize" simply because "that's what needs to be done in the interest of some putative bottom line established by a board of directors which only drinks beer or Diet Coke". I refuse to take the cynical view that it's only business, if art falls by the wayside in the process. And I refuse to just shrug my shoulders and move on to "whatever's next" after a favorite brand has succumbed to the siren call of fahsion and bullshit.


Manuel, it's prose like this that so greatly enjoy reading from you. These are my sentiments exactly, but I could never put them down with such poignant precision and no-nonsense clarity as you are able to. Amen, good man. You have truly hit upon the kernel of modern nonsense that has afflicted way too many wines - including even some in cool-climate Ontario, where you'd think that oak overdoses wouldn't work on underripe Bordeaux varietals and blends - but oh, some go that route, all sense be damned.

The "board of directors" bit really resonates with me because I am frequently saying how quality artisanal wine is inherently at odds with the "bean-counting" mentality; the approach that seeks to "design" a beverage for a given price point and/or demographic. There is so much modern, shallow kitsch everywhere today, and behind it I see what can only be termed as "glaring-eyed marketing hounds" - professionals using all manner of sophisticated means to try to identify that mysterious "what people want" - something that's all too often taken as lowest-common-denominator by default. :roll:

And as for fashion? I used to be even more extreme when I was younger: I used to say that fashion was bullshit! Except that nowadays I am able to contently pass by what I don't like and focus on the ever-more-narrow genres of wine that still have not succumbed to The Scourge®.

It is, as always, an honour to read your thoughts! :D
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Re: Would you pay $500 dollars for a bottle of wine?

by Bernard Roth » Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:05 am

I'm a little late to the party, but I would restate the question this way:

Is a well-selected $250 bottle of wine 10x better than a well-selected $25 bottle?

(Obviously, one could select wines in those price ranges to get absurd comparisons, but to make this an interesting question, you have to choose wines that are interesting to this audience.)


The next matter is that not all wine lovers are endowed equally. So it is unfair to ask people whether they would pay XXX dollars for a bottle. For every person who says yes, you can find some amount that they would not pay. So let's say that I would pay $500 because my income permits it. But I could not pay $5000 for a bottle. Honestly, what is to be learned from that exercise except who has the bucks and who doesn't?

Frankly, the question would be better posed as hypothetical. If somebody gave you $500 to spend only on wine, would you be willing to splurge on one bottle or would you buy more bottles at a lesser price?
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Re: Would you pay $500 dollars for a bottle of wine?

by Manuel Camblor » Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:11 am

Thanks, Paul. It's good, every once in a while, to find out one is not alone.

The worst part about so many focus-groupped, lab-enhanced, flashily- marketed products, made more in the boardroom than the bodega these days, is how so many are sold as somehow "artisanal" or "authentic" of some region or other beyond the marketing department that shaped them.

Oh well, maybe the worst isn't this, after all, but how people out there buy the shit and believe it is "a true expression" of the best Napa, Rioja, Bordeaux, Mendoza--or wherever--can give. I cringe in the same way when listening to those people as I do in front of those who laud the corporate pseudo-alternative rock of so many bands these days. To them I normallly say: "You wouldn't know real music if it bit you in the ass".

Again, thanks for the kind words. I think it's morethe passion speaking than any real talent I may possess.
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Re: Would you pay $500 dollars for a bottle of wine?

by JoePerry » Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:20 am

TimMc wrote:To even suggest that I think that what something cost 60 years ago when Ansel Adams created it, or [more to the point] when you created it later on, is worth the same is nothing less than an insult to my sensibilities.


And vines planted sixty years ago compared to those just planted...?
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Re: Would you pay $500 dollars for a bottle of wine?

by Manuel Camblor » Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:28 am

This whole "being insulted" bit is getting old triple-quick.
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Re: Would you pay $500 dollars for a bottle of wine?

by Bob Ross » Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:37 am

"Is a well-selected $250 bottle of wine 10x better than a well-selected $25 bottle?"

I like your formulation, Bernard. Tim's poll has generated quite a bit of heat, quite a bit of light, and your re-formulation focuses the question in a meaningful way.

I think there are many times when I would prefer the $250 bottle -- resale, donation to a charitable event, gift to a person who would especially enjoy the wine, special family occasion, attendance at a offline, probably some other occasions that don't come to mind.

If it's every day drinking, I'ld certainly choose ten bottles, and might even consider that a bit too high.

So much of wine drinking depends on context, as Jenise pointed out in another thread recently. Focus on the number of bottles for a certain amount of money elevates price over value in my mind.

For me, the key is value -- what is the value to me of whatever I'm buying. That's often independent of price.

Thanks for the restatement.

Regards, Bob
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Re: Would you pay $500 dollars for a bottle of wine?

by Hoke » Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:50 pm

Manuel Camblor wrote:Ooooooooh, Hoke, he didn't just go where I think he went, did he?

Tim, beware, these ITB types can be really rough.

Now I can stand back and watch. Go ahead, boys. Anybody taking bets?


Nah, too easy, Manuel. And not really necessary. Tim seems perfectly capable of self-hoisting. He doesn't need my help.

And in reference to your other reply...actually, I don't think of you as hidebound and traditional. Not at all. It's just that you are usually so expressive and flamboyant in your opinions that it's fun to engage in dialogue with you. And I confess: it's so easy to know what buttons to push to see the fireworks, sometimes I'm guilty of pushing those buttons. :)
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Re: Would you pay $500 dollars for a bottle of wine?

by JoePerry » Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:06 pm

Hoke wrote: And I confess: it's so easy to know what buttons to push to see the fireworks, sometimes I'm guilty of pushing those buttons. :)


What is going on here?!?

Hoke's asking to be called PollyAnna.

He's pushing Manuel's buttons and seeing fireworks.

Geeze, get a chat room :shock:
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Re: Would you pay $500 dollars for a bottle of wine?

by Manuel Camblor » Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:25 pm

Of course, Hoke, among all those buttons that so reliably yield the fireworks you love there is one that could cause something you may not one.It's that red one with all the dust on it...
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Re: Would you pay $500 dollars for a bottle of wine?

by JoePerry » Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:50 pm

"Oh, how long can trusty Cadet Hoke hold out? How can he possibly resist the diabolical urge to push the button that could erase his very existence? Will his tortured mind give in to its uncontrollable desires? Can he resist the temptation to push the button that, even now, beckons him even closer? Will he succumb to the maddening urge to eradicate history? At the MERE...PUSH...of a SINGLE...BUTTON! The beeyootiful SHINY button! The jolly CANDY-LIKE button! Will he hold out, folks? CAN he hold out?"
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Re: Would you pay $500 dollars for a bottle of wine?

by Sam Platt » Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:00 pm

Fade to black as Hoke cackles an evil "BWAH-HA-HA-HA-HA"! Be sure to tune in next week when you'll hear Manuel say (insert Manuel-like comment here).
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Re: Would you pay $500 dollars for a bottle of wine?

by Dave Erickson » Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:31 pm

I like Hoke's first point: Who cares? During the 2000 futures craze I happily took orders for Margaux Margaux at $375 a bottle and up, and was pleased as could be to be able to have multiple cases to sell to certain customers. If they want to blow their dough on trophy wine, who am I to say them no? Anyway, I'd leap over cases of First Growth Bordeaux to get to a bottle of Domaine Gauby. Let the rich and famous gorge on Lafite Rothschild. As long as it keeps them away from my Roussillon favorites, it's okay by me.
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Re: Would you pay $500 dollars for a bottle of wine?

by Hoke » Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:20 pm

Dave Erickson wrote:I like Hoke's first point: Who cares? During the 2000 futures craze I happily took orders for Margaux Margaux at $375 a bottle and up, and was pleased as could be to be able to have multiple cases to sell to certain customers. If they want to blow their dough on trophy wine, who am I to say them no? Anyway, I'd leap over cases of First Growth Bordeaux to get to a bottle of Domaine Gauby. Let the rich and famous gorge on Lafite Rothschild. As long as it keeps them away from my Roussillon favorites, it's okay by me.


Now THERE is a real wine lover's attitude! Not the liking my point part, but that's good too.

You have the right attitude: profit off the outrageously priced stuff and with those profits finance the wines you really do like to drink. The poseurs get what they want (and bless 'em for it), and you get to enjoy what you want. What could be better???

Hey, some people aren't happy unless they are unhappy, I guess?
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Re: Would you pay $500 dollars for a bottle of wine?

by Hoke » Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:26 pm

Joe and Sam:

You guys settle down now, or it's no more brewskis for you tonight, boyos.

Here Manuel and I are both trying to be mature and benevolent and gracious and you come along and try to stir things up. Sheesh, try to add one touch of dignity to this joint, and see what happens??? By chance, did either of you sit around and poke sticks in anthills when you were little guys?

I'm enjoying this curiously benign moment I'm having. This restraint thing can be kinda nifty. Every now and then. Wouldn't want a steady diet of it, you understand. But as a change of pace, it's not bad.
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Re: Would you pay $500 dollars for a bottle of wine?

by Carlo » Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:17 pm

Do a blind tatsing and find out.

I`ve put a bag over a high and low priced wines of the same vintage.
you`d be surprised what would happen.
$500 for a bottle is wayyyyy to much.
Since it only cost so much to make.
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Re: Would you pay $500 dollars for a bottle of wine?

by Hoke » Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:42 pm

Carl Alderete wrote:Do a blind tatsing and find out.

I`ve put a bag over a high and low priced wines of the same vintage.
you`d be surprised what would happen.
$500 for a bottle is wayyyyy to much.
Since it only cost so much to make.


Carl: Hey, I understand what you're saying, man. I am not out there spending $500 for a bottle of wine.

But instead of saying "$500 for a bottle is wayyyyy to [sic] much," I'd say "$500 for a bottle is way more than I can afford to spend.

Let's try five different scenarios here:

1. You're Bill Gates. Only you've still got the wine jones of Carl Alderete. Is $500 still too much to spend on a bottle of wine? Seriously, now.

2. You have been given a gift, free and clear, out of the blue, of $500. You have a chance to buy a bottle of wine that you know is worth at least $1,000. If you buy it, you can double your money literally overnight, and then spend that money on whatever you want (and we know it would be mostly wine, right?). No guilt, no scamming. Just a quick flip for a big profit (think of it as like real estate). Would you spend your $500 on that bottle of wine? Or say, no thanks, $500 a bottle is wayyyy too much!

3. You pull off the deal of your life (whatever it is you do). It's your first really big time score, and suddenly you are totally rolling in dough. You look at your faithful wife, who has supported you and believed in you all these years, and you want to treat her to the best meal, the best evening, you can possibly think of. You know she's sighed over The French Laundry for years, but you've never been able to think of it. Now, you can. Not a problem. And you actually get a reservation. Remember, for a variety of reasons, you want this to be the night of your lives. And sure enough, there's a fabled bottle of _____________ right there on the list. Maybe the last one available. The perfect night, the perfect restaurant, an evening truly to remember as a crowning point in your life. But that wine is priced at $500 (which, now, is like five minutes of your newly rich time). Wayyyyy too much?

4. Your favorite charity is ______________________. You really care about this charity and the kids it helps. You've worked for it...hard...for years, and you know the researchers are finally close to a cure for the deadly disease that shatters young lives. You've had a good run lately, and you can afford to donate $500 to this charity. OR, you have a chance to buy a bottle of __________________ for $500, with the certainty that if you donate it for a live auction item it will fetch two to three to four times as much. At the very least. Maybe more. Do you donate the $500 to your charity, that needs every penny it can get to find that cure? Or do you buy the bottle of wine (for which you can take a tax deduction) and donate it to the charity and make four times more (and the bidders can deduct it from their taxes as well).

5. Bad news. You are dying. Terminal disease. No hope. Just a few short months to live. There are things you want to do before you die, but most you won't be able to do now. But you can have that bottle of wine you've always wanted to try. Heck, it's not even coming out of your pocket: your friends know how much you've always wanted to try that bottle, so they all chipped in and bought it for $500 and they are standing there, having presented it to you, with a corkscrew and a glass, pure unadulterated love for you beaming from their faces. Do you tell them, "No thanks, guys. I appreciate it, but $500 a bottle is wayyyyy too much."
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Re: Would you pay $500 dollars for a bottle of wine?

by Carlo » Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:49 pm

BLAHhhhhhhh

Well done !
Since you put it that way :lol:
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Re: Would you pay $500 dollars for a bottle of wine?

by Lou Kessler » Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:00 pm

JoePerry wrote:"Oh, how long can trusty Cadet Hoke hold out? How can he possibly resist the diabolical urge to push the button that could erase his very existence? Will his tortured mind give in to its uncontrollable desires? Can he resist the temptation to push the button that, even now, beckons him even closer? Will he succumb to the maddening urge to eradicate history? At the MERE...PUSH...of a SINGLE...BUTTON! The beeyootiful SHINY button! The jolly CANDY-LIKE button! Will he hold out, folks? CAN he hold out?"


I'd pay more than $500 to be there when the BUTTON is PUSHED!!!!!!!!
Nothing else on this thread is worth " A pail of warmed over spit"
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Re: Would you pay $500 dollars for a bottle of wine?

by Hoke » Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:08 pm

Carlo wrote:BLAHhhhhhhh

Well done !
Since you put it that way :lol:


Just don't go spending it on that over-priced Napa stuff, Carlo. That's wayyyyy too much to spend on wine from that place. Stay with Sonoma, buddy. :D
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Re: Would you pay $500 dollars for a bottle of wine?

by James Roscoe » Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:11 pm

Lou Kessler wrote:
JoePerry wrote:"Oh, how long can trusty Cadet Hoke hold out? How can he possibly resist the diabolical urge to push the button that could erase his very existence? Will his tortured mind give in to its uncontrollable desires? Can he resist the temptation to push the button that, even now, beckons him even closer? Will he succumb to the maddening urge to eradicate history? At the MERE...PUSH...of a SINGLE...BUTTON! The beeyootiful SHINY button! The jolly CANDY-LIKE button! Will he hold out, folks? CAN he hold out?"


I'd pay more than $500 to be there when the BUTTON is PUSHED!!!!!!!!
Nothing else on this thread is worth " A pail of warmed over spit"


If it was Micheal Rolland's warm spit, it might be worth $500. This thread is great!

Hoke, PUSH THE BUTTON!!!!
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Re: Would you pay $500 dollars for a bottle of wine?

by Hoke » Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:21 pm

My god, you are a bloodthirsty bunch!

I feel like I'm standing in the Coliseum in Rome.
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Re: Would you pay $500 dollars for a bottle of wine?

by David M. Bueker » Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:24 pm

Real life circumstance:

Someone you truly care about in your life says in an off-handed conversation that they would like to taste wine xxxxxx just once in their life. It costs $500 per bottle. Do you buy one to open for them? I would.
There behind the glass lies a real blade of grass. Be careful as you pass. Move along. Move along.
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