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Re: What are you opening for Election Day?

by Thomas » Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:16 pm

Ian Sutton wrote:In response to the two party frustration, I fully understand and agree. As an outsider though, we don't even hear of US independants or other parties (well not since that guy with all the money and a dislike of facial hair tried to invent a party and run for president). It's good for us to hear of them.

Over here as well as the liberals; there's the splinter right wing independance party (mainly seeking to get out of EU); the green party; smaller splinter groups & independants off the main parties, including an ex-newsreader who stood as an anti-goverment sleaze candidate and of course the monster raving loony party (and comically also splinter groups from the original :roll: ).

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Ian, we have those parties here too--we call them Frat Houses...
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Re: What are you opening for Election Day?

by Ian Sutton » Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:06 pm

Thomas wrote:
Ian Sutton wrote:In response to the two party frustration, I fully understand and agree. As an outsider though, we don't even hear of US independants or other parties (well not since that guy with all the money and a dislike of facial hair tried to invent a party and run for president). It's good for us to hear of them.

Over here as well as the liberals; there's the splinter right wing independance party (mainly seeking to get out of EU); the green party; smaller splinter groups & independants off the main parties, including an ex-newsreader who stood as an anti-goverment sleaze candidate and of course the monster raving loony party (and comically also splinter groups from the original :roll: ).

regards

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Ian, we have those parties here too--we call them Frat Houses...

:lol:
Ahhh, but I think the difference is that the frat houses are somewhat more organised!
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Re: What are you opening for Election Day?

by Randy Buckner » Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:14 pm

In my view, a few Dems should have been voted out too--by more real Independents.


The Independents swung the election. CNN reports Independents, who make up 26 percent of the national electorate, were the swing constituency. They voted for Democrats by a 59 percent to 37 percent margin.
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Re: What are you opening for Election Day?

by Thomas » Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:51 pm

Randy Buckner wrote:
In my view, a few Dems should have been voted out too--by more real Independents.


The Independents swung the election. CNN reports Independents, who make up 26 percent of the national electorate, were the swing constituency. They voted for Democrats by a 59 percent to 37 percent margin.


Yes I know, but they voted Democrat.

To be fair, here in NYS, the names on the Independent list were the same as the ones on the Democrat list--once again, some of us had no real choice, only anger to act on. I don't call that an election result. To me, it's choosing sides for the next fight and shifting alliances to do it. In my neighyborhood, if one of us shifted alliances the family would have to move to a new location quick!

Give me a five-party system or let me move to Italy where they have more fun with elections--isn't it part of their daily routine???
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Re: What are you opening for Election Day?

by James Roscoe » Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:14 pm

JoePerry wrote:I woke up this morning with the question: "what if they let us win?"Not the best time to be taking over. :shock:


Paranoid, but perceptive Joe. I'm much happier about the chances for a real Republican (I have no idea what a "real" Republican looks like anymore as Reagan is dead.) to win in 2008 now than I was before. We got kicked just enough, but not enough to let the Democrats do any damage, just enough to take all the blame. Of course if the religious right or the oil industry control the nomination again I'm voting Whig.
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Re: What are you opening for Election Day?

by JoePerry » Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:36 pm

James Roscoe wrote:
JoePerry wrote:I woke up this morning with the question: "what if they let us win?"Not the best time to be taking over. :shock:


Paranoid, but perceptive Joe. I'm much happier about the chances for a real Republican (I have no idea what a "real" Republican looks like anymore as Reagan is dead.) to win in 2008 now than I was before. We got kicked just enough, but not enough to let the Democrats do any damage, just enough to take all the blame. Of course if the religious right or the oil industry control the nomination again I'm voting Whig.


Well, I vote first and foremost for environmental policies. If push came to shove, I could live with McCain. As long as the main dish comes out correct, I can deal with some green beans or coleslaw on the side.
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Re: What are you opening for Election Day?

by Randy Buckner » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:00 pm

If push came to shove, I could live with McCain.


What about Rudy? Has everyone written him off as a viable candidate? I'd vote for him over McCain.
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Re: What are you opening for Election Day?

by Rahsaan » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:17 pm

Give me a five-party system or let me move to Italy where they have more fun with elections--isn't it part of their daily routine???


What exactly do you like so much about 5 party systems? The ability for fringe groups to join the government?
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Re: What are you opening for Election Day?

by Thomas » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:39 pm

Rahsaan wrote:
Give me a five-party system or let me move to Italy where they have more fun with elections--isn't it part of their daily routine???


What exactly do you like so much about 5 party systems? The ability for fringe groups to join the government?


No, the potential ability for fringe groups to make the government accountable, and on a more regular basis, which would mean the ability to call elections to come around instead of waiting for regularly scheduled election days. My aim would be to keep the politicians nimble and alert--might even keep them so busy they would possibly find less time for pages...

Not sure if five parties is the right number but I am convinced that two isn't.

And to add to my mad ideas, I think that, like cigarettes and other toxic substances, political advertising on television should be banned.
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Re: What are you opening for Election Day?

by Ian Sutton » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:41 pm

2 party systems often suffer from idealogical battles with major swings in approach caused by change of power. This swinging between opposites can be counter-productive.

In UK we've probably fixed that by both parties having exactly the same policies, but then what if you agree with neither?

Multi party however has the problem that it's difficult to ever get anything agreed and no-ones in the job for long enough to actually do anything.

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Re: What are you opening for Election Day?

by Rahsaan » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:46 pm

No, the potential ability for fringe groups to make the government accountable, and on a more regular basis, which would mean the ability to call elections to come around instead of waiting for regularly scheduled election days. My aim would be to keep the politicians nimble and alert--might even keep them so busy they would possibly find less time for pages...

Not sure if five parties is the right number but I am convinced that two isn't.


The number of parties is probably less of an issue than whether or not the Senate and the House of Reps move to proportional representation.

There are an infinite number of factions within both the Democratic and the Republican parties, which pretty much mimics the division into multiple "mainstream" parties you find in Europe, where the "multiple" parties form coalitions regardless, much like the different factions within our "two" parties.

Proportional representation on the other hand has its ups and downs like everything, but it is clear that it allows fringe groups to enter government, although I'm not sure that increases "accountability" - as it all depends who the government is responding to.

The extraordinary success of the frightening FPO in Austria is in large part due to their system of proportional representation (Austria is no more racist and xenophobic than France, Germany, or the US, but they have a political system that allows radical racist and xenophobic parties to enter into government), and of course whether or not the FPO increases accountability depends on who you ask..

Anyway, what was that about wine..
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Re: What are you opening for Election Day?

by James Roscoe » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:47 pm

Rudy G. will never get the Republican nomination until he becomes pro-life. He would never run as a Democrat. I doubt he would have the stomach for a third party run.
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Re: What are you opening for Election Day?

by James Roscoe » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:52 pm

Rashaan, your discussion is a good one. What you leave out is the myriad of variations that exist at the local level. The two party system has served this country pretty well for over two-hundred years. The fact that many feel that it is failing us now probably has less to do with the system and more to do with cultural and social issues that we will probably work out in the next twenty years. The political system will find its way. It always has. If the system can survive a civil war more or less in tact, I'm sure it will survive the culture wars.
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Re: What are you opening for Election Day?

by Rahsaan » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:58 pm

What you leave out is the myriad of variations that exist at the local level. The two party system has served this country pretty well for over two-hundred years. The fact that many feel that it is failing us now probably has less to do with the system and more to do with cultural and social issues that we will probably work out in the next twenty years


So you're saying because Americans are divided over gun control, abortion, and the place of religion in education they need more parties and greater ideological diversity represented in government?
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Re: What are you opening for Election Day?

by James Roscoe » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:05 pm

No, Rashaan, I think I was saying just the opposite. I think the various coalitions within the various political parties usually take care of these problems. I will agree that htere has been a fundamental breakdown in that system in the past ten years or so and that this will probably work itself out in the next twenty years. Of course I have no crystal ball on how this will happen. I also don't see it happening with any of the current crop of leaders.
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Re: What are you opening for Election Day?

by Randy Buckner » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:16 pm

Rudy G. will never get the Republican nomination until he becomes pro-life.


This should be between a person and their god, the same as gay marriage -- why the hell is the GOP hitching their wagon on issues like this? It's insane.
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Re: What are you opening for Election Day?

by James Roscoe » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:21 pm

Randy Buckner wrote:
Rudy G. will never get the Republican nomination until he becomes pro-life.


This should be between a person and their god, the same as gay marriage -- why the hell is the GOP hitching their wagon on issues like this? It's insane.


I will respectfully disagree.
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Re: What are you opening for Election Day?

by Thomas » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:23 pm

James Roscoe wrote:Rudy G. will never get the Republican nomination until he becomes pro-life. He would never run as a Democrat. I doubt he would have the stomach for a third party run.


Didn't he used to be a Democrat and didn't he endorse Mario Cuomo while he was a Republican?
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Re: What are you opening for Election Day?

by Randy Buckner » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:24 pm

What? You don't think that government intrusion into our lives is excessive as it is?
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Re: What are you opening for Election Day?

by Thomas » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:26 pm

James Roscoe wrote:
Randy Buckner wrote:
Rudy G. will never get the Republican nomination until he becomes pro-life.


This should be between a person and their god, the same as gay marriage -- why the hell is the GOP hitching their wagon on issues like this? It's insane.


I will respectfully disagree.


And I respectfully disagree with your disagreement. And I hate the term pro-life too, especially when it is uttered by people who make wars.
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Re: What are you opening for Election Day?

by Thomas » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:31 pm

James Roscoe wrote:Rashaan, your discussion is a good one. What you leave out is the myriad of variations that exist at the local level. The two party system has served this country pretty well for over two-hundred years. The fact that many feel that it is failing us now probably has less to do with the system and more to do with cultural and social issues that we will probably work out in the next twenty years. The political system will find its way. It always has. If the system can survive a civil war more or less in tact, I'm sure it will survive the culture wars.


That does not represent my feeling about the failure of the two-party system, and because I have a feeling that I know where this thread is headed, that's all I shall post about politics, except to say to Rahsaan, I mainly play Devil's Advocate with my five-party talk but I surely am convinced that we need something big as change. Revolution? Where the hell are the Beatles when you need them?
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Re: What are you opening for Election Day?

by James Roscoe » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:40 pm

Thomas wrote:Where the hell are the Beatles when you need them?


Dead or part of the establishment.
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Re: What are you opening for Election Day?

by Ian Sutton » Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:48 am

Definitely worth avoiding getting into specific topic political debate (especially as I get appalled by the moral indignation on both sides of the abortion debate - definitely a debate to skirt respectfully around on a wine forum).

I like the talk about 2 party / multi party / proportional representation as it doesn't obviously split down party lines (unless your party isn't one of the 2 :lol: ). This allows us to discuss without feeling the need to 'play the party line'. I personally think there's merit in a prop. representative house (either or both of Senate & House of reps). It seems there's a normal desire in the US not to present one party with complete control, which may mean some people vote against preferences to achieve this. With PR in either or both houses, then there's a natural brake on the power of the president. The current situation (post these elections) can result in the head saying move and the arms and legs saying no = impasse. At least with PR, the head has a more natural opportunity to negotiate.

I'd also be interested in Sue/Neils comments on NZ politics with the added complexity of the Maori representation, but also how a multi-party political climate works in practice.

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Re: What are you opening for Election Day?

by JoePerry » Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:34 pm

Thomas wrote:And I respectfully disagree with your disagreement. And I hate the term pro-life too, especially when it is uttered by people who make wars.


Thomas, as a tree-hugging Democrat that marched in the big anti-Iraq war protest over three (?) years ago, I feel it is the failing of our society that women should feel that they need to make the choice. I do not dispute a women's right, but if our culture wasn't so screwed up, even if a woman didn't want to raise a child, she would still feel welcomed enough to carry to term and give to one of the thousands of couples out there on a 5+ year waiting list for an infant to adopt.

Everyone in our society is to blame, from liberals to conservatives (no matter what pro-life organizations would have you believe).

Just my 2 oz. on this dangerous topic that we should probably take to a flurry of PMs if it should be continued.

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Joe
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