Open Mike: Montsant, Spain.

I am wondering if anyone has had an acidity problem with Montsant?? I ask `cos I am about to post on the Falset which was over the top with acid content!!

WTN: `00 Castell de Falset-- Agricola Falset-Murca, Montsant.

Founded in 1919, this wine is a blend if Grenache, Carignan, Cab Sauv. Unfiltered, good cork, 14% alc, opened half hour and good swirling!! The wine has been cellared for over a year.

Color. Dark rudy-red, barely showing any age on the rim.Inky centre,almost opaque.

Nose. Initially quite meaty, then earthy, blueberries, cherry, redcurrants. Hint of oak somewhere, quite nice with no big blast of alcohol here!

Palate. Initial mouthfeel entry is rich, black fruits, soft tannins, highish acidity but all very flavorful. It`s ripe without being sweet, like the savoury cassis tones. Some licorice, blueberries (carignan?), and chocolate as it opens up. However, the sour cherry and blazing acidity on the finish do not impress and this was even more dominant the second day. Interesting wine though and keen to explore Montsant more.

Cost was around $20 Cdn.
Food. NY steak.

****** just a hint of sediment.

Excess acidity in hot, sunny Montsant?

This is called... a-c-i-d-i-f-ic-a-t-i-o-n. (Good ol' tartaric...)

Thanks for the welcome Bob. I used to lurk fairly regularly (and post very occasionally) in the past, but gave up with the move to Netscape. I'll try to get back in the habit here...

Peter, I do remember you from the old (original) WLDG. Lots of regulars drifted away with the move to NS, but a few have drifted back. I hope that you will continue to be one of them.

Excess acidity in hot, sunny Montsant?

This is called... a-c-i-d-i-f-ic-a-t-i-o-n. (Good ol' tartaric...)

Thanks, Victor. About the Lasendal, I have dug out all my Spanish books and I am starting to think there is more than one version of this wine. It could well be that in the USA, there is also a name change, maybe Mas Donis??
I am quite confused, wonder if cellar tracker might be of help here??

Maybe Peter might have something to add? The wine itself is just OK at this early stage of opening.

*********check this out, http://www.cellercapcanes.com/english.htm

Click 2nd bottle profile from the left.

BTW, both `03`s???

Yes, I got two bottles .

Robert

Rob, do you think this wine has seen some malo?
In fact, I have a whole bunch of questions and wonder if your European version is different from the wine available here?!!!

Bob,

Re: Mas Donis / Lasendal: Lasendal looks very like the Mas Donis Barrica, which according to RP is "Made for the American market". (he gave the 2002 90 pts - WA#152 and the 2003 92 - WA#159). Lasendal doesn't appear on the English version of the Capçanes website, but appears to have a similar blend and ageing period.

As you will have seen in my private reply to you where I struggled to find a justification for the excessive acidity you were noting, Victor's explanation makes much more sense... We're talking about a very warm area and lack of acidity is a more frequent problem.

Bob,

according to the shop, where my bottles were bought, the Lasendal '03 is sold in the US as Mas Donis Barrica, so they seem to be the same wine.

Unfortunately, I don't have any data with respect to malo.
I don't think that the wine I had was acidfied, well at least nothing like that came to my mind while drinking the stuff.

Regards, Robert

Please note that we're talking about two different wines here - Castell de Falset, from the Falset co-op, and Lasendal/Mas Donís Barrica, from the Capçanes co-op. So we shouldn't confuse notes about one and the other. (BTW - I'm no great fan of the Falset co-op's wines. At elmundovino (http://elmundovino.elmundo.es/elmundovino/), we haven't rated any Castell de Falset wines above 13.5/20.)

Re malolactic: just about 100% of the red wines made anywhere in the world undergo malolactic fermentation. Without it, they would not be stable.

Thanks everyone for all this imput. This has been a very educational Open Mike and everyone knows a lot more now about Montsant!!
My crossposting of questions on the UK wine forum has also created some valuable interest and it seems there are multi bottlings/bottle variations/name changes and so on. Anyhows, I opened my Lasendal last night so here are my impressions. Have to say my bottle needed about 3 hours to come around and eventually starting singing as the leg of lamb came out of the oven.

WTN: `03 Lasendal Granatxa--Celler de Capcanes, Montsant.

Opened an hour to breathe, good cork, not decanted. 14% alc, a blend of 85% Grenache and 15% Syrah.

Color. Pale red-ruby/thin watery rim/no real depth in centre. Nice pale rainbow, legs run fast.

Nose. Initialy closed but opens with time......oak, plum, thyme, cherry, wild flowers,blueberry.

Palate. Definately a wine of two stages. Initial feeling was red fruits, some tannins, oak, finish a tad short. Lots of swirling did not improve, good acidity but under-performer. That all changed in 3 hrs as the lamb appeared! More red fruit flavor and hint of mocha, really coming alive. Half bottle left for tomorrow so we will see eh

Cost was around $20 Cdn.

Dark glasses, hat with brim pulled down, American accent....they will sell you a case!!!!

Bob, you're a genious! It worked: I am now the proud owner of a Capçanes Mas Collet 2003.

The wine isn't as badly spoofed as I was led to believe. Sure it is very ripe and sweetly strawberryish but it seems more a result of the vintage than cellar practices (though I don't know, of course). Very fruity, rather simple, but balanced by tannins. The acidity is rather low, but it doesn't feel flabby anyway. This is much better than expected - a well made wine, but of a style I just don't appreciate too much.

But a word of warning: don't cook with it. I used this in a stew where I usually put 2/3 of a bottle of red wine, but though I only put ½ a bottle, it became too winey and sweet. I wonder why?

Otto, you see!!!! Knew that would work. This is the one you can also use......

http://www.likesbooks.com/images/zorro.jpg

Re malolactic: just about 100% of the red wines made anywhere in the world undergo malolactic fermentation. Without it, they would not be stable.

Hi all first post in a long time after getting a bit more time over now.

There is technically not anything that differ stability in red from white regarding malolactic, so a non malo red could be stabilized just as the white generally are.

In fact in Priorat malolactic fermentation can be problematic. Costers del Siurana claims they havnt had malolactic fermentation for years.

Best
Fredrik Svensson, now in Luxembourg (well since over a year ago actually)

P.S Peter hope everything is well, you did get the two bottles?

Fredrik, I have to disagree. If Costers del Siurana goes on the market with their malic acid in (which I don't believe they do, by the way), then they're crazy - and the only red wine producers in the world to do so! Red wine is much more fermentable than white, and so much more unstable. A non-malo red, in addition to being very hard to drink with all that sharp malic acid in it (as opposed to lactic acid) will probably, a) do an uncontrolled malo in bottle; b) develop a lot of volatile acidity (and soon become vinegar), c) otherwise, be a lot more susceptible to altering yeasts such as Brett.

Otto, what's this constant obsession with 'spoofulation'? (To everyone else: a term coined on another board, referring to wines that have been largely tampered with through modern techniques such as reverse osmosis in order to make them big and 'Parkerized'). I'm referring to your comment, "The wine isn't as badly spoofed as I was led to believe."

Do you really think a modest co-operative in Catalonia would have money or time to spend to 'spoofulate' wines? Can't you tell the difference between trafficked wines from cooler regions and wines that are naturally big, powerful and round because, for better or worse, they come from extremely sunny and warm parts of the world like most of Spain? There are practically no such practices as reverse osmosis, powdered tannins or such gimmicks in Spain, and only a tiny number of wineries do any micro-ox at all (which at any rate is not, in the general opinion of the wine world, an invasive and tampering technique of the type of those others I've mentioned - among other things, it was invented by an ultra-traditionalist winegrower in Madiran, Patrick Ducournau.)

Victor, the reason for the sentence you quote is in my first post on this topic: I was not sold the wine because I was told it is too spoofy for my tastes. My obsession with the word is mostly because apart from a few wines, the wines at our Monopoly Alko are very "modern" in style.

-O-

Being "modern" and being "tampered with in the cellar" (a.k.a. "spoofulated") are two different things,. and I think it's imperative for a wine aficionado to learn to differentiate between the two. "Modern" means, eseentially, fully ripe grapes and clean winemaking with a minimum of funkiness as result. The climate is such in Spain that the need to "spoofulate" very seldom arises here, and many times I can't understand why such monikers are imposed on Spanish wines.

The one aspect of "spoofulation" that can often be found in this country is a clumsy, excessive use of oak -- there's no denying that fact. But that's not a sin often committed by the pretty skilled, rather prudent winemakers at the Capçanes co-op.

Victor, this seems to be a day that I just cannot get my thoughts accross in an understandable fashion. I'll try anyway, though it feels like I'm digging my own grave. By spoofy I used a definition that is maybe a bit different from yours, but which was quoted to me on WT. It went something like: any flavour not from fruit or oak is bad, raisined flavours are ok, longer hang time equals better without exception, etc. Though the oaking in this wasn't overdone, I didn't get really anything that isn't a fruit flavour. Besides, possibly from the too hot year, the nose reminded me of Port, i.e. was raisiny. I don't know if it is spoofulated (you say not, I'll keep than in mind), and frankly don't care, because it smelled and tasted spoofy - and here I fully accept that a warm year could have produced these smells which to me were characterised and belonging to spoofiness. Ergo, the only way to distinguish whether these scents which can belong to unspoofy or spoofy wines, is by knowing the practices. I didn't know the practices, therefore I only called on the wine in the way I saw it. Thank you for informing me.

-O-

There's a lot of zealot-style simplification on that board, Otto! Anything that doesn't taste like a tart Loire wine is considered suspect byy them - and Spain's Mediterranean coast, baked by the sun, certainly doesn't resemble the Loire...

What I mean about Mediterranean-style wines is that, unless some specific cellar technique is applied (as it is at your beloved Château Musar, where the wine is aged in vat and in barrel for more than two years, then bottled, kept in the cellar and only released at age 7), they will naturally burst with fruit flavors when young. They come from sunny, dry terroirs where grapes naturally reach high levels of maturity. Wait until they are seven or eight years old, like Musar, and then you'll see what technicians call 'tertiary aromas and flavors', i.e. those imparted by the long aging in barrel or bottel, really come through.

Consider that this Montsant wine doesn't only come from a hot vintage like 2003 - but, in addition, it's just three years old! Give it time, and the cedar and the pepper and the minerality will beging showing above the fruit. But even now I'm surprised that you don't find in it any of those other attractive, non-fruit components of Mediterranean wines: the 'maquis' aromas of dried aromatic herbs, the richness of Asian spices... These are not the products of any suspect, manipulative 'spoofulation' process. They are the result of the place the wine comes from.

Tonight at my fav winestores Xmas party, I tasted the `04 Finca Sandoval for the first time. Bravo Victor!!

Victor, this seems to be a day that I just cannot get my thoughts accross in an understandable fashion. I'll try anyway, though it feels like I'm digging my own grave. By spoofy I used a definition that is maybe a bit different from yours, but which was quoted to me on WT. It went something like: any flavour not from fruit or oak is bad, raisined flavours are ok, longer hang time equals better without exception, etc. Though the oaking in this wasn't overdone, I didn't get really anything that isn't a fruit flavour. Besides, possibly from the too hot year, the nose reminded me of Port, i.e. was raisiny. I don't know if it is spoofulated (you say not, I'll keep than in mind), and frankly don't care, because it smelled and tasted spoofy - and here I fully accept that a warm year could have produced these smells which to me were characterised and belonging to spoofiness. Ergo, the only way to distinguish whether these scents which can belong to unspoofy or spoofy wines, is by knowing the practices. I didn't know the practices, therefore I only called on the wine in the way I saw it. Thank you for informing me.

-O-

There's a lot of zealot-style simplification on that board, Otto! Anything that doesn't taste like a tart Loire wine is considered suspect byy them - and Spain's Mediterranean coast, baked by the sun, certainly doesn't resemble the Loire...

What I mean about Mediterranean-style wines is that, unless some specific cellar technique is applied (as it is at your beloved Château Musar, where the wine is aged in vat and in barrel for more than two years, then bottled, kept in the cellar and only released at age 7), they will naturally burst with fruit flavors when young. They come from sunny, dry terroirs where grapes naturally reach high levels of maturity. Wait until they are seven or eight years old, like Musar, and then you'll see what technicians call 'tertiary aromas and flavors', i.e. those imparted by the long aging in barrel or bottel, really come through.

Consider that this Montsant wine doesn't only come from a hot vintage like 2003 - but, in addition, it's just three years old! Give it time, and the cedar and the pepper and the minerality will beging showing above the fruit. But even now I'm surprised that you don't find in it any of those other attractive, non-fruit components of Mediterranean wines: the 'maquis' aromas of dried aromatic herbs, the richness of Asian spices... These are not the products of any suspect, manipulative 'spoofulation' process. They are the result of the place the wine comes from.

Well, after the discussion started by J R about wines from Spain (on another thread here), I have decided to open the `00 Baboix. Will post some notes tomorrow so stay tuned!

WTN: `00 Mas d`en Cosme Baboix, Montsant.

Blend of Grenache, Carignan, Tempranillo and Cab Sauv. Opened 2 hours, decanted, 13.5% alc, cost was $26 Cdn. Not a very well-known producer I think as a google search did not tell me much. Co-op maybe? I purchased this wine the same time as the Castel Falset, tasting notes here.

Colour. Light ruby-red and starting to show just a tinge of orange on the rim.

Nose. Cassis, minerals, red fruits, brambly. No funk.

Palate. Initial mouthfeel entry is cherry, red fruits, low tannins but pleasureable aftertaste. Started to open up nicely after 3 hrs. Certainly not as acidic as the`00 Falset I posted on. Hint of garrigue and the cab seems to give this wine some fullness. Its pretty basic in a way but nice try.

***** I found this very informative article whilst doing some research....


http://www.thewinenews.com/febmar05/cover.asp

Add merlot to the blend, Bob. Made by Buil & Giné, a mid-level winery operating both in Priorat and Montsant. This wine was not considered a particularly distinguished Montsant by Spanish tasters - but I personally haven't tasted it in at least three years.

Thanks Victor. I think in my research I came across the name Buil and Cine. I am trying to find some Spainish wines a little bit out of the ordinary and have had fair success! One store here in town has an excellent selection and is up with the new wave of wineries. Maybe not the high end, but its a start eh. regards.