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Salil

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Yeah, this is why I own plenty of Riesling and no white Burg

by Salil » Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:37 pm

*well, almost none - aside from a few bottles of young Raveneau MdT, all of which should have meet a corkscrew by the end of the year.

So Rieslingfeier - an absolute ton of German bottles across a couple of days. Many utterly amazing. A few, tragically corked. Some, just old and tired.

Dinner with a few friends last night, and we started with a pair of Chablis.

1996 Dauvissat Chablis Les Preuses - light gold in color, oxidative, and bleh.
Onto the backup, which was a 1995 Dauvissat Chablis Les Clos. Also premoxed. 0 for 2. and thankfully the FX Steinertal Riesling saved the day.

Premox sucks. The hipsters may not be fans, but sulfur and residual sugar can be wonderful things to keep the oxidative forces at bay.
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David M. Bueker

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Re: Yeah, this is why I own plenty of Riesling and no white Burg

by David M. Bueker » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:03 pm

You don't need to drink up your Raveneau in a year. It's one of the few producers largely untouched (read: no more than basic random bottle issues) by premox.
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Re: Yeah, this is why I own plenty of Riesling and no white Burg

by Dale Williams » Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:59 pm

I love Riesling, but would be sad not to own any white Burgundy. A significant number of my greatest white wines of all time have been Burgundy. A Niellon dinner (4 flights each with a Vergers, Batard, & Chevalier) is probably the best paid dinner I ever went to (this was pre-pox). So now due to pox for the most part I avoid except for less expensive wines (Bourgognes, village wines, a few St Aubin and Chablis 1ers) that I drink young. They just fill different places at my table than Riesling. I did take a chance this week- there's several lots of Remi Jobard (who I enjoy) Meursaults in an auction. I realized I never hd a poxed R. Jobard, and looked at oxidized wiki and see NO pox reports except 1996. So put in a lowball bid on some Charmes (low enough that if I get 8 good bottles I'd be quite happy). We'll see (if I win).
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Re: Yeah, this is why I own plenty of Riesling and no white Burg

by Tom Troiano » Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:30 pm

Dale Williams wrote:I love Riesling, but would be sad not to own any white Burgundy.


Dale,

I'm with you. Some of the greatest wine tasting dinners I've ever been to were two Corton Charlemagne dinners, a dinner with 12 Lafon Meursaults and a dinner with two vintages of DRC Montrachet (and Mondavi Reserve Chardonnay poured from a DRC Montrachet bottle, but that's a whole other story).

You won't find me ever buying DRC Montrachet but I can't imagine a wine geek with no white Burgundy in the cellar.
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Re: Yeah, this is why I own plenty of Riesling and no white Burg

by Sam Platt » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:38 pm

1995 Chevalier Montrachet is the best white wine I have ever tasted. I have a mix of about a dozen white Burgs in the cellar. All wine geeks have some white Burgs and, like me, they all hold their breath when they pop a cork. I've actually had worse luck (TCA and premox) with Riesling than white Burg.
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Re: Yeah, this is why I own plenty of Riesling and no white Burg

by Rahsaan » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:08 am

Sam Platt wrote:I've actually had worse luck (TCA and premox) with Riesling than white Burg.


The premox part of this makes no sense unless you have only been opening a few white Burgs in the past ten years?
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Re: Yeah, this is why I own plenty of Riesling and no white Burg

by David Lole » Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:28 am

Salil wrote:*well, almost none - aside from a few bottles of young Raveneau MdT, all of which should have meet a corkscrew by the end of the year.

So Rieslingfeier - an absolute ton of German bottles across a couple of days. Many utterly amazing. A few, tragically corked. Some, just old and tired.

Dinner with a few friends last night, and we started with a pair of Chablis.

1996 Dauvissat Chablis Les Preuses - light gold in color, oxidative, and bleh.
Onto the backup, which was a 1995 Dauvissat Chablis Les Clos. Also premoxed. 0 for 2. and thankfully the FX Steinertal Riesling saved the day.

Premox sucks. The hipsters may not be fans, but sulfur and residual sugar can be wonderful things to keep the oxidative forces at bay.


Concur with your sentiment, Salil.

My cellar is almost devoid of White Burgundy these days ... although I did buy a case of 2007 Domaine William Fèvre Chablis 1er Cru Fourchaume Vignoble de Vaulorent which is sealed ohso well with a top quality Diam cork, very high fill levels and probably witha good dose of sulphur. Paid around $30 a bottle and I'm constantly rating them as incredibly youthful, consistent high quality of about 92 - 93 points. No cork taint, no premox. Wouldn't hold my breath though, but so far, so good. And I'm about half way through the box.

Otherwise caveat emptor.

I share the experience and pleasure of drinking mature white burgundy but the risk of premox has been so ridiculously high over so many years now, you'd have to be a little mad to involve yourself with it until the problem is eradicated.
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Re: Yeah, this is why I own plenty of Riesling and no white Burg

by Tim York » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:27 am

David Lole wrote:I share the experience and pleasure of drinking mature white burgundy but the risk of premox has been so ridiculously high over so many years now, you'd have to be a little mad to involve yourself with it until the problem is eradicated.


But will the problem be eradicated? As far as I can tell, there has been no price softening in high end white Burg which suggests that demand is still strong in spite of the risks.
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Re: Yeah, this is why I own plenty of Riesling and no white Burg

by Tom Troiano » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:06 am

Tim York wrote: there has been no price softening in high end white Burg which suggests that demand is still strong in spite of the risks.


Some don't care what the wine tastes like. They are buying the name/label to impress their friends.

Same applies to those who spend $500-600 on the second wine of a First Growth.
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Re: Yeah, this is why I own plenty of Riesling and no white Burg

by Tim York » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:46 am

Tom Troiano wrote:
Tim York wrote: there has been no price softening in high end white Burg which suggests that demand is still strong in spite of the risks.


Some don't care what the wine tastes like. They are buying the name/label to impress their friends.

Same applies to those who spend $500-600 on the second wine of a First Growth.


Some people claim that white Burg grands and 1ers crus are worth their high prices for drinking in the first 5 years. I disagree finding most disjointed and excessively woody at that stage but there's no accounting for tastes.........
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Re: Yeah, this is why I own plenty of Riesling and no white Burg

by Sam Platt » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:53 pm

Salil wrote:The premox part of this makes no sense unless you have only been opening a few white Burgs in the past ten years?

Salil,

I have tasted multiple vintages of Zind-Humbrecht Riesling including Clos Windsbuhl and Turckheim that have definitely exhibited what I can only describe as POx. They have been the main POx offender. I have had almost twice as many corked Rieslings, on a percentage basis, as corked white Burgs. If I look at POx alone Burg is affected more often on a percentage basis, but perhaps not statistically significantly so. I am enough of a nerd to pop the data set into Minitab, but I'm going to resist my stat geek urge to do so. :)

I did have a spate of Burgs with POx from the mid/late ’90’s but have yet to run in to POx on any white Burg vintages later than ’99. Last year I drank 18 Burgs, not counting Macon Village, and about 35 German/Alsatian Rieslings. Those numbers are about average for me over the years. There is definitely more opportunity for failure among Riesling in a given year. Perhaps I’ve just been lucky.
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Re: Yeah, this is why I own plenty of Riesling and no white Burg

by Rahsaan » Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:10 pm

Sam Platt wrote:
Salil wrote:The premox part of this makes no sense unless you have only been opening a few white Burgs in the past ten years?

Salil,

I have tasted multiple vintages of Zind-Humbrecht Riesling including Clos Windsbuhl and Turckheim that have definitely exhibited what I can only describe as POx. They have been the main POx offender. I have had almost twice as many corked Rieslings, on a percentage basis, as corked white Burgs. If I look at POx alone Burg is affected more often on a percentage basis, but perhaps not statistically significantly so. I am enough of a nerd to pop the data set into Minitab, but I'm going to resist my stat geek urge to do so. :)

I did have a spate of Burgs with POx from the mid/late ’90’s but have yet to run in to POx on any white Burg vintages later than ’99. Last year I drank 18 Burgs, not counting Macon Village, and about 35 German/Alsatian Rieslings. Those numbers are about average for me over the years. There is definitely more opportunity for failure among Riesling in a given year. Perhaps I’ve just been lucky.


I'm still trying to figure out how you have Salil as quoted for the response that I gave!

Otherwise, I don't know those ZH wines so I can't speak to them. One hypothesis for the higher TCA would be cheaper corks in the rieslings, but I don't imagine that is the case for ZH? Another is that the flavor of TCA is more pronounced in riesling as opposed to white Burgundy where it is harder to detect because of the other 'typical' white Burg aromas (wood, earth, mushroom) that overlap. (Of course that could also work the other way and lead to more false positives with white Burg) Another is that you've just had idiosyncratic experiences that would even out in the longrun.

But the real surprise is the POX difference, not the TCA difference. So many factors including which rieslings you are counting as 'prematurely' oxidized, storage conditions over the lifetime, etc etc. My instinct is that POX should be much higher in white Burgundy, especially since I've never had a POXed riesling, although I tend to drink the off-dry versions which have their preservatives! I guess if you're mostly drinking dry rieslings, that's a different story and they may very well be just as susceptible to POX as Burgundy and even more susceptible to bad showings because they are so austere and difficult during the shutdown period.
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Re: Yeah, this is why I own plenty of Riesling and no white Burg

by Salil » Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:43 pm

Can't speak about ZH. I own none in the cellar, for a variety of reasons.

I've heard some worrying things about some premox issues at Trimbach, but again, no personal premox issues there yet, though I drink and own very little Trimbach.

Most of my Rieslings are German and Austrian, and I've had no premox problems to date from most of the major producers there.

I'll agree though that great white Burgs can be terrific with age. I've enjoyed some amazing older Chevalier Montrachets and Meursaults, and the wines are remarkable. But given the crapshoot, it's just not worth the $. Plus for my tastes, they're not necessarily 'better' than great dry Riesling or GV - to date, the greatest dry whites I've had are still older Gruners from FX Pichler, or some of the truly amazing Rieslings being made at Hirtzberger and Nikolaihof.
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Re: Yeah, this is why I own plenty of Riesling and no white Burg

by Sam Platt » Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:34 pm

Rahsaan wrote:I'm still trying to figure out how you have Salil as quoted for the response that I gave!

Oops! I don't suppose you would believe that auto-correct is to blame? Screw up on my part. My apologies to both Rahsaan and Salil.

Rahsaan wrote:But the real surprise is the POX difference, not the TCA difference. So many factors including which rieslings you are counting as 'prematurely' oxidized, storage conditions over the lifetime, etc etc. My instinct is that POX should be much higher in white Burgundy, especially since I've never had a POXed riesling, although I tend to drink the off-dry versions which have their preservatives! I guess if you're mostly drinking dry rieslings, that's a different story and they may very well be just as susceptible to POX as Burgundy and even more susceptible to bad showings because they are so austere and difficult during the shutdown period.

Incidence of POx is worse among white Burg that I have tasted than among German/Alsatian Riesling that I have tasted, but not significantly so. Fortunately, I have not had a severe POx issue with either varietal over the years. Certainly, I have not tasted as widely as many here so my sample size may be comparatively small.

I cannot explain my bad TCA luck with Riesling. For some time my incidence of corked Riesling was running around 6%, and I am not terribly sensitive to TCA. Awhile back I had a discussion with David regarding my experience and contention that Rieslings are prone to TCA contamination. In fact, David agreed with me wholeheartedly... not. I believe his position was that subtle nature of dry and semi-dry Rieslings make TCA more noticable than it is with other grapes.

Knock on wood - I have had very little trouble with any significant wine faults over the past couple of years.
Sam

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