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Dan Smothergill

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Re: Sugars in Winemaking

by Dan Smothergill » Fri May 02, 2014 5:22 pm

Sounds like the technique is worth serious consideration. As I mentioned, the reliability of bench trials after backsweetening with sucrose has been a problem for me. Save some of the Riesling and we'll compare it to the one I made from the same grapes.
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Re: Sugars in Winemaking

by Dan Smothergill » Fri May 02, 2014 5:36 pm

Note the wide range in estimates for how long it takes sucrose to break down completely. Gerling puts it as up to a year.
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Re: Sugars in Winemaking

by Victorwine » Sun May 04, 2014 10:30 am

Hi Dan,
When doing bench trials to determine a “desirable sweetness” its convenient and easy to use “table sugar”. Just try (I know this is hard) to focus on the “intensity of sweetness”. Once a “desirable sweetness” level is decided on, the next thing to do is decide on what the source of the actual sugar will be. Personally I like using grape juice or grape concentrate, even though in some cases something might be “taken away” in blending they do contribute a lot more than just “plain old” table sugar. (Before doing the actual blending a second run of bench trials is conducted). Besides when using just table sugar (even if I invert it myself) sometimes I find myself making “secondary adjustments”.

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Re: Sugars in Winemaking

by Dan Smothergill » Sun May 04, 2014 12:15 pm

Thanks Victor. I'll give focusing on intensity a try. I've been confusing two things here. One is desired sweetness and the other is something similar to what Howie referred to as a syrupy taste just after sweetening that hangs on for some time afterwards. For me the taste is more an ugly mouth feel that interferes with the judgements I'm trying to make. The solution is to wait. But I've never been a good wait-er.
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Re: Sugars in Winemaking

by Bob Henrick » Sun May 04, 2014 9:40 pm

Howie Hart wrote:I thought I'd update this, as I just finished bottling my 2013 Riesling. I started with about 150 lbs. of grapes, which yielded 12 gallons of juice at 18 Brix (% sugar). After a couple days of fermentation, when the Brix had dropped to 8, I drew off 2 gallons into 2-liter soda pop bottles and stored that in the freezer. I thawed this out on Wednesday and added it back to the wine before filtering and bottling. My reasoning, based on the above discussion, was to increase the fructose to glucose ratio in the RS of the final product. At this point, I'm quite pleased. The RS is about 1.6%, but has enough acid for balance. The finish is interesting. The sweetness is very clean, not cloying at all and at this point the wine reminds me of lemonade over rocks (real rocks). It reminds me of some Mosels I have had. I'm anxious to see how it is in a few months, after bottle-shock is over.



And I Howie, am simply anxious to try it...maybe Thursday night at Mo'Cool?
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Re: Sugars in Winemaking

by Howie Hart » Mon May 05, 2014 3:52 am

Bob Henrick wrote:And I Howie, am simply anxious to try it...maybe Thursday night at Mo'Cool?
That sounds like a plan, Bob.
Chico - Hey! This Bottle is empty!
Groucho - That's because it's dry Champagne.
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Re: Sugars in Winemaking

by Victorwine » Mon May 05, 2014 7:59 am

Dan wrote;
Note the wide range in estimates for how long it takes sucrose to break down completely. Gerling puts it as up to a year.

Not only that Dan, but whenever back sweetening and using any form of powdered sugar (sugar not derived from grapes themselves or the fermentation process) you have to wait for the “addition” to become fully “integrated” and “incorporated” into the wine. (There are some who claim no matter how long you wait this never occurs). So the solubility and hygroscopic properties of the various sugars will play a big role in this. Looking at the main players- Fructose is the most soluble at 20 deg C (375 g / 100 mls of water); Sucrose (204 g / 100 mls of water); and glucose (90 g / 100 mls of water). The hygroscopic properties (the ability of a substance to attract water) for these three sugars, more or less follows the same ranking.

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Re: Sugars in Winemaking

by Dan Smothergill » Mon May 05, 2014 8:53 am

Victor,
You surprised me in saying that you sometimes add grape juice or concentrate. Can you measure how much sugar is added? Does it impart any unwanted flavors? It sounds like an easy solution if it doesn't have problems.

Dan
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Re: Sugars in Winemaking

by Victorwine » Mon May 05, 2014 11:30 am

You surprised me in saying that you sometimes add grape juice or concentrate. Can you measure how much sugar is added?
That’s why we have hydrometers, measuring volumes aren’t that difficult. By using grape juice and concentrates (grape derived sugars-no sugar added) the sugar is already “integrated” and “incorporated” into the mix. (Besides like Howie mentioned in using unfermented grape juice you’re more or less dealing with equal amounts of fructose and glucose (derived from the fruit), and using fermented grape juice (not fermented to dryness) most likely you’re dealing with a higher concentration of fructose than glucose.

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Re: Sugars in Winemaking

by Dan Smothergill » Mon May 05, 2014 3:15 pm

Suppose I have 5 gal. of fermented wine with .2 RS (by inaccurate Clinitest). I want to raise it to 1.0 RS. How do I use a hydrometer to determine the amount of grape concentrate to add?

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Re: Sugars in Winemaking

by Victorwine » Tue May 06, 2014 1:01 am

Use straight concentrate (usually at 68 Brix) or use the ratio 4.33 parts water to 1 part (68 Brix concentrate) will usually give a reconstituted (un-fermented sussreserve) juice of 16 Brix (this could be verified using a hydrometer or refractometer).

Volume of Concentrate or juice to be added in L = V (D-A) / (C-D)
Where V = volume of wine in L
D = Desired Brix
A = Initial Brix
C = Brix of concentrate or juice

So plugging in some numbers (using straight concentrate, you can think of this as a wine conditioner (for sweetening) without the stabilizing agent). (Note the concentrate also contains grape acids so the pH and TA should be monitored).
V = 18.9 L
D = 1 Brix = 10 g/L of sugar = 1% RS
A = .2 Brix = 2 g/L of sugar = .2% RS
C = 68
(18.9) (1 - .2) / 68 -.2 = 15.12 / 67.8 = .223 L = 223 mls (add it in stages (74 mls at a time not all at once) stir it in good let it sit and than taste. If required repeat with second stage addition. WARNING CONTAINS GRAPE SUGARS!!!! RE FERMENTATION IS POSSIBLE!!!!!)
(Un fermented reconstituted sussreserve juice)
V = 18.9 L
D = 1 Brix
A = .2 Brix
C = 16 Brix
(18.9) (1 - .2) / 16 - .2 = 15.15 / 15.8 = .958 L = 958 mls (add it in stages (319 mls at a time not all at once) stir it in good let it sit than taste. If required repeat with second stage addition. WARNING CONTAINS GRAPE SUGARS!!!!!! RE FERMENTATION IS POSSIBLE!!!!!!!

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Re: Sugars in Winemaking

by Dan Smothergill » Tue May 06, 2014 5:22 am

You are a saint Victor. Thank you.
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