Big mess in the cellar today

[Jenise]

2/3 of a bottle of a 71 Berenauslese 750 ml bottle suddently decided to leave this world.

No, it did not break. The bottle and the capsule were in tact.

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And so was the cork. But look where it is!

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Noooooooooo....!

Aw, that's a shame.

In a bit of odd coincidence, I think I posted here a while back about how heartbroken I was that my '71 Scharzhofberger BA turned to vinegar when I opened it. It was the only '71 German I had in my cellar, and I really wanted to try it. Now the curse has landed on you!

I'm sorry for your loss. I hope you have more!

[Jenise]

But how did the bottle swallow it's own cork? It was stored lying down and hadn't been touched in a long time, possibly years.

And oh, Penn & Teller are coming to town next month but so far as I know they're not here yet.

But how did the bottle swallow it's own cork? It was stored lying down and hadn't been touched in a long time, possibly years.

The alcohol slowly dissolved it? The acid? It's beyond this reader's ken. But I'll blame ISIS anyway

Jenise,

Was this really a sudden thing? Have you been checking the wine over the years?

2/3 of a bottle vanishing with no spillage nearby means it's been vanishing for quite a long time, and if so, that cork may have been sucked in a long time ago from a compression change--a very long time ago.

[David M. Bueker]

Old cork. Shrinkage. It happens.

[Jenise]

Jenise,

Was this really a sudden thing? Have you been checking the wine over the years?

2/3 of a bottle vanishing with no spillage nearby means it's been vanishing for quite a long time, and if so, that cork may have been sucked in a long time ago from a compression change--a very long time ago.

Oh, it didn't vanish, it was all over the floor--hence the "big mess" of my title. Was probably last in there on Monday so the leak happened since then. It seeped a drop or four at a time through those teeth on the capsule. But no haven't been checking it routinely--am guessing I've had it about a year, that it was given me by a friend who bought it back in the day and shipped it home from Germany where he'd been teaching with his household stuff. but it was stored where a leak would have been noticed right away, as it's rack directly faces the door--we just haven't been in the cellar all week.

But how did the bottle swallow it's own cork?

I agree with Thomas. The “sucking in” of the cork for us amateur winemaker is not really that uncommon. Usually it most likely occurs at bottling or just after bottling, before the cork actually has time to “settle in”, especially if your “fill level” is not just right or the wine or bottle itself is too “cold” (it is recommended that you bottle wine at close to 60 deg F). For this to occur in an “older” bottle time is required, the cork over time was actually “losing “ its “grip”, over time the ullage level was “falling”, “cold” temperatures caused the wine to compress, slowly “sucking” the cork into the bottle.

Salute

But how did the bottle swallow it's own cork?

I agree with Thomas. The “sucking in” of the cork for us amateur winemaker is not really that uncommon. Usually it most likely occurs at bottling or just after bottling, before the cork actually has time to “settle in”, especially if your “fill level” is not just right or the wine or bottle itself is too “cold” (it is recommended that you bottle wine at close to 60 deg F). For this to occur in an “older” bottle time is required, the cork over time was actually “losing “ its “grip”, over time the ullage level was “falling”, “cold” temperatures caused the wine to compress, slowly “sucking” the cork into the bottle.

Salute

The above is exactly where I was heading.

[David M. Bueker]

Have either of you guys ever touched a corkscrew to a cork and had it fall in with zero real pressure applied? Even laying down this happens periodically. I had it happen with a 1970 Grunhaus QbA that was laying down. It's not as if we perfectly level the bottles in storage.

Outward movement of a cork is much more obvious then inward movement (especially if the bottle has a capsule or foil). Just pay attention to the distance of the bottom of the cork and the capsule or foil.

Salute

Have either of you guys ever touched a corkscrew to a cork and had it fall in with zero real pressure applied? Even laying down this happens periodically. I had it happen with a 1970 Grunhaus QbA that was laying down. It's not as if we perfectly level the bottles in storage.

We had a double magnum of 1970 Bordeaux do this - dropped into the bottle at the first touch of the corkscrew - and it HAD been stored on its side, so imagine the mess had it done this while in repose!

Jenise, I find that German wines have more mobile corks than others. They seem to slide in and out more easily, although yours is an extreme (and regrettable) extreme). I have always thought that the sugar content might have something to do with this, but OTOH, have never noted the same tendency to oenological suicide in Ports, which also have a fair amount of RS as well as much higher alcohol.

Some sugar levels:

Sugar content in popular wines, expressed in grams per litre:

Louis Jadot Bourgogne pinot noir: four g/L

Stoneleigh sauvignon blanc: five g/L

Santa Rita Reserva cabernet sauvignon: six g/L

Kendall-Jackson Vintner’s Reserve chardonnay: nine g/L

Veuve Clicquot-Ponsardin Brut Champagne: 11 g/L

Yellow Tail shiraz: 12 g/L

Folie à Deux Ménage à Trois Red: 15 g/L

Blue Nun: 32 g/L

Beringer white zinfandel: 34 g/L

Andrés Baby Duck: 54 g/L

Chateau Doisy-Daëne Sauternes: 114 g/L

Inniskillin Riesling ice wine: 234 g/L

An interesting scale has been proposed by the International Riesling Foundation http://drinkriesling.com/tastescale/thescale which takes into account relative sugar and acidity readings.

Port can have 100 g/l+. Rieslings are more difficult to find figures on - not least of the impediments being that they measure must weight (oechsle) rather than final RS. Maybe some of our resident winemakers can suggest typical RS figures on Riesling, for Auslese, Spatlese etc. David - do you have a handy guide to that?

[David M. Bueker]

Outward movement of a cork is much more obvious then inward movement (especially if the bottle has a capsule or foil). Just pay attention to the distance of the bottom of the cork and the capsule or foil.

Salute

That would require regular inspections of many, many bottles. Seems a little too much like a fetish.

I have always thought that the sugar content might have something to do with this,

Bill:

From where did you get the sugar idea? I've never heard of it...and don't forget Sauternes, Tokaji, Commandaria, and so on.

Doubtful that sugar is the cause or this subject would have been all over Geekdom by now.

Hi Jenise,
Upon “rescuing” this bottle did you take notice (when the bottle was still in a “near” horizontal position) if the cork was still in the neck of the bottle or in the bottle?

I assume if it was just “shrinking” of an old cork signs of leakage or sipping (or just a “build up” of a “gooey” substance around those perforations of the foil cap) would have been noticed long ago. (Before “2/3 of the wine” found it’s way onto the cellar floor).
If the wine is purchased for “pleasure” (and a “long haul”) cellar the wines without the capsules.

Salute

I have always thought that the sugar content might have something to do with this,

Bill:

From where did you get the sugar idea? I've never heard of it...and don't forget Sauternes, Tokaji, Commandaria, and so on.

Doubtful that sugar is the cause or this subject would have been all over Geekdom by now.

I have had far more German Rieslings leak than any other type of wine. I'd be delighted to hear your alternative explanation.

Maybe the Germans are sold inferior corks as retribution for the war....?

[Jenise]

Hi Jenise,
Upon “rescuing” this bottle did you take notice (when the bottle was still in a “near” horizontal position) if the cork was still in the neck of the bottle or in the bottle?

I wasn't there, my husband chanced upon the situation and cleaned it up, just bringing me the curiosity of a bottle. But he's pretty sure it wasn't (still in the neck), as when he turned it upright there was the cork bobbing away.

[David M. Bueker]

The flute bottle shape seems to be more leak prone. Even producers who use very high quality corks (e.g. Dönnhoff, Leitz, Weil) have leakers.

As for RS in finished German wines, the rules have been changing. The VDP came up with some actual limits, but I have never been able to find a link, just been told it was happening.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I am surprised that the bottle in question was indeed a 750 ml. size as most bottles back then were 700 ml. Was this bottle actually a 750 ml?

Bill:

The most common difference between the German Rieslings (the sweet ones) and other sweet wines is probably bottle shape. The long tapered neck shape affects the way the cork sets. There's also the corks themselves--silicone surface or not.

[David M. Bueker]

There are plenty of old German wines in 750 ml bottles. The only thing that was standard back then was variability.

[Jenise]

On a somewhat unrelated note, I am surprised that the bottle in question was indeed a 750 ml. size as most bottles back then were 700 ml. Was this bottle actually a 750 ml?

There's nothing on the label indicating volume one way or the other, but it felt like a full 750.

Sometimes the bottle manufacture would emboss the size of the bottle on the base or at the base (75 cl / .75 L or 70 cl / .70 L)

David wrote:

The flute bottle shape seems to be more leak prone. Even producers who use very high quality corks (e.g. Dönnhoff, Leitz, Weil) have leakers.

Total agree with that (for the reasons stated by Thomas P in his last post).

Salute

[Jenise]

Sometimes the bottle manufacture would emboss the size of the bottle on the base or at the base (75 cl / .75 L or 70 cl / .70 L)

Remembered that myself when I was making coffee this morning. Indeed, it's a 7 not a 7.5. But nonetheless, still qualifies as a full bottle rather than a half or 500, and no big deal except to the extent of the "mess" created.