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TomHill

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AtlasObscura: Beaumont's EU Banned Wine

by TomHill » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:58 am

As linked in WineTerroirist, a very interesting article:
BannedWine
on a wine produced in Beaumont in the Ardeche by a coop, called Cuvee des Vignes d'Antan.
It is made from the Jacquez (also known as Black Spanish or Lenoir) and Herbemont French-American hybrid grapes from 140 yr old vines.
More on that grape:
Herbemont/Lenoir

The EU has banned wines made from French-American hybrids, or direct producers. So this is an illegal wine.

Anyway...rather interesting read on esoteric grapes.
Anyone ever tried this Cuvee des Vignes d'Antan wine?

Tom
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Re: AtlasObscura: Beaumont's EU Banned Wine

by Brian K Miller » Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:14 pm

Neat story, Tom. Thanks!
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Re: AtlasObscura: Beaumont's EU Banned Wine

by Howie Hart » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:56 pm

Thanks for posting.
Chico - Hey! This Bottle is empty!
Groucho - That's because it's dry Champagne.
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Re: AtlasObscura: Beaumont's EU Banned Wine

by Joe Moryl » Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:21 pm

The original Dr. Frank, now deceased, used to claim that hybrid wines presented dangerous health risks. They were always 100% vinifera, I believe a first in the Finger Lakes, as reflected in their name, Vinifera Wine Cellars.
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Re: AtlasObscura: Beaumont's EU Banned Wine

by Steve Slatcher » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:44 am

As I mention elsewhere, it is not true that the EU bans the use of hybrids in wine. There are for example many wines made from Seyval Blanc in England. The general ban is on the use of hybrids in PDO wines, but even then there are some exceptions allowed.
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Re: AtlasObscura: Beaumont's EU Banned Wine

by Brian K Miller » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:50 am

Steve Slatcher wrote:As I mention elsewhere, it is not true that the EU bans the use of hybrids in wine. There are for example many wines made from Seyval Blanc in England. The general ban is on the use of hybrids in PDO wines, but even then there are some exceptions allowed.


This story, then, is an exaggeration? FAKE NEWS? :lol:
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Re: AtlasObscura: Beaumont's EU Banned Wine

by Peter May » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:21 pm

Hybrids are allowed to planted if granted an exception by the EU, and of course the national authority has to also permit it first

As Steve mentions England has an EU exception to grow and sell Seyval Blanc*, an exception granted because of our position at the northerly extremes of grape growing, but no wine made from hybrids can be granted quality status.

After a long campaign, Armagnac finally got an exception to continue growing Baco Blanc.

I refer to the French growers of Jacquez in my 2009 book 'Pinotage: Behind the Legends of South Africa's Own Wine'. As my book and the article states, they have been campaigning for permission to sell their wines, without success.

France doesn't want an exception for them, and they don't have the clout and international reputation that Armagnac does.
I'm not sure that the EU is the deciding body here, as France has to ask for the exception.

*Seyval Blanc makes a damned good sparkling wine
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Re: AtlasObscura: Beaumont's EU Banned Wine

by Peter May » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:34 pm

TomHill wrote:More on that grape:
Herbemont/Lenoir
.


That article is by Prof Jeronimo Rodriguez. I got Jerry interested in the mystery of Jacquez; I'd investigated it and spoken to a number of growers and experts in the US.

But Jerry, as a retired professor of biochemistry could, and did, look at DNA and came to some remarkable conclusions. I wrote up his research as articles but couldn't get them published. The conclusions and proofs have gone to Jancis Robinson's team for the next issue of the Grapes book, but there is no funding for that and no date in sight.

Currently in the US Lenoir is the permitted name for Lenoir, Black Spanish and Jacquez on the wide held belief they are one and the same. Now TTB are planning on letting any of these names be used for any of them.

But Jerry has shown they are not the same variety, related but not identical.

Jerry has informed TTB but had no respose.
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Re: AtlasObscura: Beaumont's EU Banned Wine

by Steve Slatcher » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:56 pm

Do you know the EU document where the use of hybrids is regulated, Peter? I have had a quick look just now but could not find anything.

My understanding was that Seyval Blanc needed no special exemption for non-PDO wines. I have not read anything about that (which I grant does not prove it did not happen), and it is certainly used. But it is definitely banned for use in PDO wine. Except, for some unusual bureaucratic reason, it is OK to use the grape in Quality English Sparkling Wine! The book "Wine Grapes" says Seyval Blanc is also Authorised but not Recommended in some French areas, so it is not just the UK that allows it.

Hybrids like Rondo certainly did need to gain a special exemption for use in English PDO wines, and Stephen Skelton writes about fighting a long and unsuccessful battle to get that exemption for Seyval Blanc too. It seems that in order to do that, the national authorities have to declare the hybrid variety to be vinifera(!), and then the EU has to agree to the falsehood.

Obviously the chap in the article is being given grief about his vines, but the truth is more complex than just saying that the EU bans hybrid grapes. I think it might be a case of the blame being shifted onto the EU when actually the unpopular decision was made more locally?
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Re: AtlasObscura: Beaumont's EU Banned Wine

by Patchen Markell » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:19 pm

Try Council Regulation 491/2009, article 120a.
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Re: AtlasObscura: Beaumont's EU Banned Wine

by Patchen Markell » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:21 pm

There’s also some more detailed history of the uptake of the French restrictions by the EU in this paper: https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419 ... /dp320.pdf
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Re: AtlasObscura: Beaumont's EU Banned Wine

by Victorwine » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:51 pm

And yet, most European varieties we now call Vitis vinifera are themseles actually hybrids (V. vinifera X V, sylvesteis)

Salute
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Re: AtlasObscura: Beaumont's EU Banned Wine

by Steve Slatcher » Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:51 am

Many thanks Patchen for indulging my pedantry. At last we seem to be getting close to finding out what the true situation is. And thanks for the other article too. It does not address the details of hybrid banning, but provides interesting background.
Patchen Markell wrote:Try Council Regulation 491/2009, article 120a.

Paras 2 and 5 of which read....
2. Subject to paragraph 3, Member States shall classify which wine grape varieties may be planted, replanted or grafted on their territories for the purpose of wine production.
Only wine grape varieties meeting the following conditions may be classified by Member States:
(a) the variety concerned belongs to the Vitis vinifera or comes from a cross between the species Vitis vinifera and other species of the genus Vitis;
(b) the variety is not one of the following: Noah, Othello, Isabelle, Jacquez, Clinton and Herbemont.
Where a wine grape variety is deleted from the classification referred to in the first subparagraph, grubbing-up of this variety shall take place within 15 years of its deletion.
[…]
5. Areas planted with wine grape varieties for the purpose of wine production planted in breach of paragraphs 2, 3 and 4 shall be grubbed up.
However, there shall be no obligation to grub up such areas where the relevant production is intended exclusively for consumption by the wine-producers’ households.

Para 2 does not ban hybrids in general. But, along with 5 other varieties, Jacquez (the variety discussed in the article) may not be planted, replanted of grafted. And, according to para 5, Jacquez must be grubbed up if it is used for anything other than household wine production

I don't think this contradicts anything said in the article itself. Though the article is a bit vague about who is responsible for the vignerons' recent problems.
Last edited by Steve Slatcher on Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AtlasObscura: Beaumont's EU Banned Wine

by Steve Slatcher » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:43 am

Victorwine wrote:And yet, most European varieties we now call Vitis vinifera are themseles actually hybrids (V. vinifera X V, sylvesteis)

So we domesticated wild sylvestris vines to create vinifera, but then the domesticated vines we selected and bred crossed with sylvestris to create the vines we use for grapes today?

Isn't it debatable whether sylvestris and vinifera are the same species or not?
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Re: AtlasObscura: Beaumont's EU Banned Wine

by Peter May » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:15 pm

Maybe the French growers of Jacquez/Herbemont should realise :wink: their vines have been misidentified and rename them Barbera Paesana, which is grown made and sold in Italy.

Monella è Barbera paesana, vivace, incontenibile per il suo frizzare e per il suo profumo giovane e prorompente e vinoso

Sourcehttps://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.pubblicitaitalia.com/stampa_articolo.php%3Ftestata%3D2%26y%3D2009%26nr%3D6%26id%3D9438&prev=search

Google translates as

The most restless and exuberant spirit of this extraordinary vine is found in the bottles of Monella , the most famous of the labels signed Braida / Giacomo Bologna. [bM]onella is Barbera paesana[/b], lively, irrepressible for its sparkling and for its young and irrepressible and winy scent.


Barbera paesana is (original) Jacquez, according to Jerry. Monella is a DOC wine.

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