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Re: 'Cooked' Wine

by NayanGowda » Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:52 am

There is a good article from HRH Robinson here on the impact of temperature on shipping wines, where she highlights this piece of research from Dr Christian E Butzke in 2002. I look forward to reading Dr Butzke's research on the impact of cooking different varieties that will be released next month.

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Re: 'Cooked' Wine

by Steve Slatcher » Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:19 am

Oliver McCrum wrote:What's the basis for 'may not be apparent for days, weeks, or years'? I've seen this suggested many times on the internet but have never understood how it was possible.

I understand how it is possible. A period at a high temperature can trigger a different set of chemical reaction than those that would occur at a lower temperature. And then the products of the different reactions may then further react over a long period. And if we are talking about a few days, I think that is the time period in which wine would oxidise - it does not happen as soon as it is exposed to oxygen.

But how important this effect is over long periods is another matter - I think I share your scepticism to be honest.
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Re: 'Cooked' Wine

by Victorwine » Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:18 am

Oliver wrote:
What's the basis for 'may not be apparent for days, weeks, or years'? I've seen this suggested many times on the internet but have never understood how it was possible.

I agree with Steve, a wine that has been apparently “cooked” will now take a “new” path as it continues to bottle age. It comes down to this Oliver, scientist do not yet fully understand the science behind “bottle aging”.

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Re: 'Cooked' Wine

by Dale Williams » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:17 am

NayanGowda wrote:There is a good article from HRH Robinson here on the impact of temperature on shipping wines, where she highlights this piece of research from Dr Christian E Butzke in 2002. I look forward to reading Dr Butzke's research on the impact of cooking different varieties that will be released next month.

(I've only just joined, so I'm not sure if it is OK or not to link to external website; if I've done wrong please delete the links and I'll take a virtual slap on the wrist)


Thanks for an informative first post- don't think there's any problem with the link.
I also look forward to the report next month. It would be good to have some real research on this.

Here is a discussion of what might be happening in warm storage, though it isn't actually a study:
http://www.wineperspective.com/STORAGE% ... 0AGING.htm

While virtually all of the evidence of the dangers of warm storage are anecdotal as opposed to controlled studies, that doesn't mean that those dangers don't exist. For tens of thousands of years humans have made observations and based behavior on those observations. It's how we have advanced and prospered. Science has shown us that some of those observations (or rather the conclusions we have drawn) are incorrect. We should always keep open minds, but anecdotal evidence doesn't equal false evidence. Until some real extensive and long term research shows me that temperature doesn't make a difference, I'm keeping my wine in cellar not kitchen. Better safe than sorry.
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Re: 'Cooked' Wine

by Thomas » Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:13 pm

Dale Williams wrote:
NayanGowda wrote:There is a good article from HRH Robinson here on the impact of temperature on shipping wines, where she highlights this piece of research from Dr Christian E Butzke in 2002. I look forward to reading Dr Butzke's research on the impact of cooking different varieties that will be released next month.

(I've only just joined, so I'm not sure if it is OK or not to link to external website; if I've done wrong please delete the links and I'll take a virtual slap on the wrist)


Thanks for an informative first post- don't think there's any problem with the link.
I also look forward to the report next month. It would be good to have some real research on this.

Here is a discussion of what might be happening in warm storage, though it isn't actually a study:
http://www.wineperspective.com/STORAGE% ... 0AGING.htm

While virtually all of the evidence of the dangers of warm storage are anecdotal as opposed to controlled studies, that doesn't mean that those dangers don't exist. For tens of thousands of years humans have made observations and based behavior on those observations. It's how we have advanced and prospered. Science has shown us that some of those observations (or rather the conclusions we have drawn) are incorrect. We should always keep open minds, but anecdotal evidence doesn't equal false evidence. Until some real extensive and long term research shows me that temperature doesn't make a difference, I'm keeping my wine in cellar not kitchen. Better safe than sorry.


All true, Dale, but my problem is that a lot of anecdotal is passed off as the absolute by many self-anointed, and then the rumors circulate, soon to be passed off as facts. It goes round and round daily on the Internet!
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Re: 'Cooked' Wine

by David M. Bueker » Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:22 pm

While there is much interesting information in this thread, I get the sense that certain participants are looking for evidence that wine doesn't get ruined by high temps.

Guess what - it doesn't matter what the reactions are, high temps ruin wine in one way or another. Who cares if it causes cork failure and then oxidation or just random changing of the flavors. The wine is ruined one way or another. (And FWIW I am a physics major married to a chemistry major, so it's not that science baffles me, I just think in some cases the solid evidence of a problem negates the need for further study.)
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Re: 'Cooked' Wine

by Thomas » Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:13 pm

I think that's not what Oliver was getting at, David, although he can address that himself.

What I am getting at is that the flaw is guessed at, and then the guess makes the rounds in a kind of game of telephone, so that what is a symptom of one flaw becomes the diagnosis of another. But you are correct: a flaw is a flaw. The only real need to know all you can about a flaw is to learn its prevention.
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Re: 'Cooked' Wine

by David M. Bueker » Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:25 pm

Thomas wrote:But you are correct: a flaw is a flaw. The only real need to know all you can about a flaw is to learn its prevention.


Hence my mantra: controlled provenance & screwcaps. Yes I am still vulnerable to reduction, but most everything else is taken care of.
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Re: 'Cooked' Wine

by Victorwine » Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:28 pm

David wrote:
Guess what - it doesn't matter what the reactions are, high temps ruin wine in one way or another. Who cares if it causes cork failure and then oxidation or just random changing of the flavors. The wine is ruined one way or another. (And FWIW I am a physics major married to a chemistry major, so it's not that science baffles me, I just think in some cases the solid evidence of a problem negates the need for further study.)

“Whata-ya-mean” you can’t be both a passionate home wine maker and wine lover?

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Re: 'Cooked' Wine

by Oliver McCrum » Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:37 pm

Thomas wrote:All true, Dale, but my problem is that a lot of anecdotal is passed off as the absolute by many self-anointed, and then the rumors circulate, soon to be passed off as facts. It goes round and round daily on the Internet!


Perfect.

Some years ago the question of storage of wine was rarely raised; it was understood that in a general way heat wasn't good for long-term storage of wine, and perhaps we were a little careless about it. Now some consumers seem to feel that wine is very nearly like milk, mere hours at warm temperature causing spoilage. I suspect that the truth is somwhere in the middle; avoid exposure to heat where possible, but don't get too exercised about it. And as always, don't believe everything you read on the internet.
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Re: 'Cooked' Wine

by David M. Bueker » Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:04 pm

Oliver McCrum wrote:I suspect that the truth is somewhere in the middle; avoid exposure to heat where possible, but don't get too exercised about it. And as always, don't believe everything you read on the internet.


Nope. I will try to control any variable I can. I want the wine in as close to perfect condition as i can get it. Why take the chance? Heat in transit or in a wine shop is something I don't want. I've seen too many examples of bottles that were not what they should have been (including 3 side by side comparisons of pristine versus slightly compromised bottles in the last year) to treat heat exposure casually.
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Re: 'Cooked' Wine

by Oliver McCrum » Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:48 pm

Re-reading this thread I realise I failed to mention one important epiphany, at least as far as the trade attitude is concerned. Perhaps fourteen years ago, as I was getting my business going, I called the head of QC at a large Napa Valley winery that had a sideline of importing wine from France. I asked him if he had any view as to refrigerated containers, and he said that as the containers were stored below deck, and had large thermal mass, et cetera, no, I should ship normally.

Some six months later I decided to check two containers by having Ryan recording thermometers placed in them for the voyage. In both containers the temperature went way too high quickly after the ship left port and stayed that way for the duration of the trip; I have never shipped another non-refrigerated container.

The good news about this recent hypersensitivity is that it has helped to move the trade in the right direction.
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Re: 'Cooked' Wine

by Thomas » Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:51 pm

David M. Bueker wrote:
Oliver McCrum wrote:I suspect that the truth is somewhere in the middle; avoid exposure to heat where possible, but don't get too exercised about it. And as always, don't believe everything you read on the internet.


Nope. I will try to control any variable I can. I want the wine in as close to perfect condition as i can get it. Why take the chance? Heat in transit or in a wine shop is something I don't want. I've seen too many examples of bottles that were not what they should have been (including 3 side by side comparisons of pristine versus slightly compromised bottles in the last year) to treat heat exposure casually.



Sometimes, obsession truly is only that. Unless you can control what happens from producer to wine shop, you control nothing.
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Re: 'Cooked' Wine

by David M. Bueker » Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:33 pm

Thomas wrote:
David M. Bueker wrote:
Oliver McCrum wrote:I suspect that the truth is somewhere in the middle; avoid exposure to heat where possible, but don't get too exercised about it. And as always, don't believe everything you read on the internet.


Nope. I will try to control any variable I can. I want the wine in as close to perfect condition as i can get it. Why take the chance? Heat in transit or in a wine shop is something I don't want. I've seen too many examples of bottles that were not what they should have been (including 3 side by side comparisons of pristine versus slightly compromised bottles in the last year) to treat heat exposure casually.



Sometimes, obsession truly is only that. Unless you can control what happens from producer to wine shop, you control nothing.


I know I cannot control the entire chain, but I will limit my purchases to those that come from distributors and wine shops that treat the product well. As I said before I find some of the sentiments in this thread to be dismissive of heat damage to wine, and in my opinion (one that has been earned with more than a few ruined bottles) that's not only foolish, but, in the case of anyone in the actual wine business, anti-consumer, and indicative of a shop I would always avoid (and recommend against).
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Re: 'Cooked' Wine

by Dale Williams » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:51 am

I'm with David that I try to keep things as protected as possible when in my possession, and try to patronize stores that seem to have a commitment to care. I will say however that at least once a month I see a post on some wine board that cracks me up:
"my power was out for 12 hours, the thermometer on my wine cabinet read 68° F- is my wine ruined?"
" I asked for overnight and they sent 2 day- it's 79° here! Omigod!"
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Re: 'Cooked' Wine

by David M. Bueker » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:56 pm

Dale Williams wrote:I will say however that at least once a month I see a post on some wine board that cracks me up:
"my power was out for 12 hours, the thermometer on my wine cabinet read 68° F- is my wine ruined?"
" I asked for overnight and they sent 2 day- it's 79° here! Omigod!"


Only once a month? Gosh we're into the season when it happens daily.

As a matter of fact I have been notified that I will have no power for at least 5 hours tomorrow. My cooling unit will therefore be off, and I will have no control of my cellar in oppressive 45 degree (F) heat. Whatever shall I do??? :shock:
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Re: 'Cooked' Wine

by Thomas » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:43 pm

David M. Bueker wrote:
Dale Williams wrote:I will say however that at least once a month I see a post on some wine board that cracks me up:
"my power was out for 12 hours, the thermometer on my wine cabinet read 68° F- is my wine ruined?"
" I asked for overnight and they sent 2 day- it's 79° here! Omigod!"


Only once a month? Gosh we're into the season when it happens daily.

As a matter of fact I have been notified that I will have no power for at least 5 hours tomorrow. My cooling unit will therefore be off, and I will have no control of my cellar in oppressive 45 degree (F) heat. Whatever shall I do??? :shock:


Send the wine to my address--right away! Mine is a naturally cooled stone cellar. I'll either charge storage or I'll drink it all...depends on what you send ;)
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Ok...Then....

by TomHill » Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:01 pm

Victorwine wrote:Oliver wrote:
What's the basis for 'may not be apparent for days, weeks, or years'? I've seen this suggested many times on the internet but have never understood how it was possible.

I agree with Steve, a wine that has been apparently “cooked” will now take a “new” path as it continues to bottle age. It comes down to this Oliver, scientist do not yet fully understand the science behind “bottle aging”.

Salute


So...let's assume that a higher temperature may trigger some threshold chemical reactions that wouldn't occur at a lower temperature.
So it launches the wine on a "new path" of aging in the btl. And perhaps it is possible that the products from these threshold reactions are not
sensorarily apparent until further down the road. What, automatically, makes these threshold reactions produce "bad" reaction products? Maybe they could actually produce "good" reaction products?? (They possibly can...see below).
There is no evidence for these threshold chemical reactions that I'm aware. Don't know chemistry very well, though.... I'm just a simple lil' ole country computational physicist. But let's discount them for now and go with the rule that chemical reactions double for each 10C rise in temperature. So if you wine spends 6 hrs...wherevere...at 90F. It would....given that the cork seal remains intact...therefore make sense to store the wine at 30F for a day or two and everything would even out and the wine would be the same as one that stayed at 60F its entire life?? Seems plausible to me...given the caveats above.
There are those who would argue that these temperature flucations "stress" the wine and can "fatigue" it (attributing anthromorphic characteristics to wine can lead to some flawed conclusions, I think) and the wine will not be the same. Maybe...but I tend to doubt it.
What we do know, recalling from a UC enology text I havent revisited in a number of yrs....they did a study of accelerating aging of wine by heat (also did one w/ vibrations/sound effects...and w/ gamma rays as I recall). The result was that the heating of the wine did produce the increase in bottle bouquet (complexity) that was associated w/ bottle aging, on a shorter time scale. But, accompaning this, was an increased loss of fruitiness as well. So the "science" says that heat is harmful to wine, according to that study.
I think nobody in their right mind would dismiss the effect of heat on wine as being harmful. I've got some old wines standing out in my garage for 10-15 yrs that are pretty good examples of what a "cooked" wine is like. Pretty dreadful stuff..DNPIM.
But what I'm suggesting, and I think Oliver is implying and Robin seems to believe, is that maybe...just maybe...wine is not quite as fragile as we seem to believe and can possibly withstand some higher temperatures better than some people suspect. And...like Oliver...I think some people may be attributing flaws in a wine...or a wine's failure to meet their expectations....to a "cooked" character or some heat damage along the way into their cellar.
Of course, I prefer to have my wine delivered to me from Calif at a perfect 60F, or prefer to have it delivered in Feb rather than in June. But I sometimes have a case show up in June or July, when the temperature in these here parts is in the low 90F's (seldom gets above 100F here).
I've yet to see any pushed corks in those wines. And...when I rip open those boxes...the wines are cool to the touch..maybe upper 60F's or low 70F's. Of course, I have no idea what has happened to the wine as its crossed Nevada or Arizona or central NewMexico. But it's not something I lose a whole lot of sleep over. I think some people can be a little anal on the subject. I know one guy that, if it's 2-day air delivery, and it shows up bright and early the next morning, will automatically reject it as (possibly) heat damaged, not even open the box, and automatically send it back to the wnry and demand its replacement. He's not a very popular guy w/ some of the winemakers I know.
There's a lot of unknowns out there...most of it anecdotal and folklore. In many cases, there is no "science" that is known on the subject..just handwaving and assumptions. In most cases we have no idea what kind of conditions a wine has been subjected to in its journey from the wnry to our cellars. I suspect some of us would be apalled at the treatment our wine receives along the way. Some may be due to heating. I had an '05 Roussanne a few weeks ago. I loved it when I first had it a yr ago. This btl had a great nose, but almost no flavor and virtually no finish. Last night, I had an '03 Viognier from that same producer. Incredibly short/almost no finish. It would be easy to just say that it was obviously suffering from heat damage along the way...based on no evidence I know of. I just sorta shrugged my shoulder, decided the wine delivered below my expectations, and went on to the next wine w/o much thought.
Anyway...just my random thoughts on the subject...not that I'd know Jack$hit anyway.
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Re: 'Cooked' Wine

by Thomas » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:56 pm

Tom,

If heat is always a bad thing, someone should tell the producers on the small island of Madeira. 104 F for months in order to bring that wine to such a wonderful place. Yes, the fruit suffers, but who cares? ;)
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Re: 'Cooked' Wine

by David M. Bueker » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:12 pm

Thomas wrote:Tom,

If heat is always a bad thing, someone should tell the producers on the small island of Madeira. 104 F for months in order to bring that wine to such a wonderful place. Yes, the fruit suffers, but who cares? ;)


Now that's just being snarky. :wink:
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Oh....A Contrarian Here...

by TomHill » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:18 pm

Thomas wrote:Tom,

If heat is always a bad thing, someone should tell the producers on the small island of Madeira. 104 F for months in order to bring that wine to such a wonderful place. Yes, the fruit suffers, but who cares? ;)


Thomas,
You are, of course, correct. But that oxidized character in Madeira is the way it's supposed to taste. It's not supposed to taste that way in your Chard or GWT!!!
Actually, you make a good point. Why is oxidative character a "good" thing in Madeira or an old Rhone white or a VinSanta, but it's
a "bad" thing if it's in a young Riesling or Alsatian GWT?? It's all because of our expectations of what the wine "should" be like. And
sometimes our expectations can be misplaced.
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Re: 'Cooked' Wine

by Steve Slatcher » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:07 pm

Whether an oxidised wine is acceptatable or not is indeed a question of expectation. And expectations change with time. It seems that oxidised styles are becoming less and less fashionable, perhaps merely because we are able now to control it better. I recently had a few bottles of a very reasonably priced dry Spanish white that had a colour verging on orange which were actually beautiful IMO. I suspected at first that was how they were meant to be, later discovered they were not meant to be oxidised, but then thought "to hell with it, I liked it so I will buy some more". The new bottles were oxidised too and I didn't regret my purchase for a moment. Sometimes we need to set expectations aside.
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Re: 'Cooked' Wine

by Victorwine » Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:46 pm

Questions for Steve;
Were the wines labeled Spanish white table wine?
In your opinion were the “oxidized” versions best suited for “sipping” wines or still suitable as “table” wines?

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Re: 'Cooked' Wine

by Steve Slatcher » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:45 am

Victorwine wrote:Were the wines labeled Spanish white table wine?
In your opinion were the “oxidized” versions best suited for “sipping” wines or still suitable as “table” wines?

It was Vindemia, Vi de Criança, Terra Alta DOC, 1999, 13.5% drunk in 2006. It didn't say table wine on the label, but a DO wine would not. It was good to drink with food in the quantities that one normally drinks with food. That seemed more appropriate to me, but then I rarely drink wine without food.
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