The place for all things wine, focused on serious wine discussions.

Why 750ml vs 1L as standard btl size?

Moderators: Jenise, Robin Garr, David M. Bueker

no avatar
User

Mike Jacobs

Rank

Wine geek

Posts

21

Joined

Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:17 am

Why 750ml vs 1L as standard btl size?

by Mike Jacobs » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:03 pm

Just wondering why 3/4 liter became the norm rather than a nice round 1.0 liter? :?:
http://the-wine-rack.blogspot.com
no avatar
User

Howie Hart

Rank

The Hart of Buffalo

Posts

6389

Joined

Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:13 pm

Location

Niagara Falls, NY

Re: Why 750ml vs 1L as standard btl size?

by Howie Hart » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:20 pm

I'm not sure about the metric origin, but a standard bottle of wine or liquor in the US used to be a "Fifth" or 1/5 gallon, which is 25.6 oz. Sometime in the 1970s this size bottle was "Internationalized" to 750 ml or 25.4 oz. At the time many folks felt they were getting cheated. :roll: However, a 750 ml bottle is just about the right size for 2 people to share over dinner.
Chico - Hey! This Bottle is empty!
Groucho - That's because it's dry Champagne.
no avatar
User

Mike Jacobs

Rank

Wine geek

Posts

21

Joined

Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:17 am

Re: Why 750ml vs 1L as standard btl size?

by Mike Jacobs » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:47 pm

Thanks Howie.
Did Europe adopt the Americanized standard of 750ml or do they use another size?
TIA
http://the-wine-rack.blogspot.com
no avatar
User

Bernard Roth

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

789

Joined

Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:31 pm

Location

Santa Barbara, CA

Re: Why 750ml vs 1L as standard btl size?

by Bernard Roth » Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:42 am

Some older bottles from Europe were not exactly 750 ml. I have seen 73 cl, for example.

It may be more to do with bottle manufacturing, or maybe that in the past people had smaller hands.
Regards,
Bernard Roth
no avatar
User

Neil Courtney

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

3257

Joined

Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:39 pm

Location

Auckland, New Zealand

Re: Why 750ml vs 1L as standard btl size?

by Neil Courtney » Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:08 am

I understood it has something to do with the the average size of the glass blowers lungs way back when they made the bottles by hand.
Cheers,
Neil Courtney

'Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it.' --- Anonymous.
no avatar
User

Tim York

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

4924

Joined

Tue May 09, 2006 2:48 pm

Location

near Lisieux, France

Re: Why 750ml vs 1L as standard btl size?

by Tim York » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:20 am

I opened a Swiss bottle of 70cl last night. I believe that Switzerland has now moved to the 75cl European norm.

With the increasing alcoholic strength of most wine coupled with growing demonization of alcohol by governments, i have seen calls for the standard bottle size to be reduced to 50cl on the rationale that this amount is the maximum which can be safely consumed in a day by a couple.
Tim York
no avatar
User

Peter May

Rank

Pinotage Advocate

Posts

3795

Joined

Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:24 am

Location

Snorbens, England

Re: Why 750ml vs 1L as standard btl size?

by Peter May » Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:13 am

Bernard Roth wrote:Some older bottles from Europe were not exactly 750 ml. I have seen 73 cl, for example.


I am certain you'll find the bottles labelled with 73cl were intended for the UK market and were in fact 75cl size bottles.

Until the UK adopted EU laws regarding measurements, it was an offence to sell less than the labelled amount*. So French wine intended for the UK was labelled as containing 2cl less than they were labelled as in France to cater for any shortfill.



* similar laws were the origin of the 'bakers dozen' and cottage loaf
no avatar
User

Peter May

Rank

Pinotage Advocate

Posts

3795

Joined

Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:24 am

Location

Snorbens, England

Re: Why 750ml vs 1L as standard btl size?

by Peter May » Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:20 am

Mike Jacobs wrote:Just wondering why 3/4 liter became the norm rather than a nice round 1.0 liter? :?:


I've heard a number of reasons

1) related to size that could be blown by a glass blower
2) It relates to the measure of wine that allotted to French farmworkers as a daily ration when working in the field
3) Amount of wine a man would comforatble drink with a meal (in the days when 10-11%abv was standard)


I'm pretty sure the measure predates the metric measurement, i.e. 75cl was selected as being the closest to it
no avatar
User

Oswaldo Costa

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

1902

Joined

Mon Nov 12, 2007 6:30 am

Location

São Paulo, Brazil

Re: Why 750ml vs 1L as standard btl size?

by Oswaldo Costa » Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:42 am

Vin Jaune from the Jura is sold in clavelins, 620ml bottles, because 38% of the juice evaporates during the making. What I don't understand is why they applied the 38% discount to 1 liter instead of 750 ml (which would have generated 465 ml bottles).

Incidentally, the above makes me wonder if the 750 bottle wasn't developed because 25% of the juice evaporates during fermentation and barrel ageing...
"I went on a rigorous diet that eliminated alcohol, fat and sugar. In two weeks, I lost 14 days." Tim Maia, Brazilian singer-songwriter.
no avatar
User

Dale Williams

Rank

Compassionate Connoisseur

Posts

11112

Joined

Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:32 pm

Location

Dobbs Ferry, NY (NYC metro)

Re: Why 750ml vs 1L as standard btl size?

by Dale Williams » Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:18 am

Peter May wrote:I'm pretty sure the measure predates the metric measurement, i.e. 75cl was selected as being the closest to it


Yes, most surviving 17th & 18th century bottles seem to be roughly between 700 & 800 ml, with no true standardization. Metric system was adopted around 1800, then Napolean suspended it, didn't come into widespread useage till I thnk 1830s.
no avatar
User

Nathan Smyth

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

258

Joined

Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:20 am

Re: Why 750ml vs 1L as standard btl size?

by Nathan Smyth » Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:27 pm

Howie Hart wrote:However, a 750 ml bottle is just about the right size for 2 people to share over dinner.

I'll probably catch Hades for saying this, but for average-sized people [she maybe 120lbs, he maybe 160lbs], 375ml of 14%+ red wine is gonna get them zonked [especially she, at maybe 25% less body mass than he].

Which would be okay maybe once a week, but you start doing that every night and you better have a liver made outta titanium.

I'd like to think that most folks visit [& re-visit] a bottle of wine over the course of two or three days, but at some point the thing is gonna oxidize.

Actually, it seems to me that with the resurgence in screw-capped wines, there could be an opening for more 1000ml bottles, especially at the low end of the market - with screw caps, there's a much better chance that the wine will last upwards of a week, which is what most [???] people would want out of a 1000ml bottle.
no avatar
User

Victorwine

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

2031

Joined

Thu May 18, 2006 9:51 pm

Re: Why 750ml vs 1L as standard btl size?

by Victorwine » Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:48 pm

Great answers from everyone. Some might find the following link interesting;
http://www.wineintro.com/history/glassware/general.html

Salute
no avatar
User

ClarkDGigHbr

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

481

Joined

Sat May 06, 2006 7:16 pm

Location

Gig Harbor, WA

Re: Why 750ml vs 1L as standard btl size?

by ClarkDGigHbr » Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:50 pm

Nathan Smyth wrote:Actually, it seems to me that with the resurgence in screw-capped wines, there could be an opening for more 1000ml bottles, especially at the low end of the market - with screw caps, there's a much better chance that the wine will last upwards of a week, which is what most [???] people would want out of a 1000ml bottle.


This larger bottle would not necessarily appeal to me. When I have wine with dinner at home, my wife typically does not drink any of it and I usually do not feel like drinking 1/2 bottle per night. That means the larger bottle would sit partially consumed an additional day, which then increases the likelihood I would get bored with it or it gets oxidized. Either way, that remaining portion would get dumped.

-- Clark
no avatar
User

Michael K

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

570

Joined

Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:13 pm

Location

Wellesley, MA, USA

Re: Why 750ml vs 1L as standard btl size?

by Michael K » Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:13 pm

Bernard Roth wrote:Some older bottles from Europe were not exactly 750 ml. I have seen 73 cl, for example.

It may be more to do with bottle manufacturing, or maybe that in the past people had smaller hands.

Yup,

Just opened a bottle of 1970 Ch. L'Arrosee and that was marked 73 cL.
no avatar
User

Nathan Smyth

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

258

Joined

Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:20 am

Re: Why 750ml vs 1L as standard btl size?

by Nathan Smyth » Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:48 pm

ClarkDGigHbr wrote:That means the larger bottle would sit partially consumed an additional day, which then increases the likelihood I would get bored with it or it gets oxidized.

I don't think I've ever seen that sentiment expressed on a wine bulletin board.

Does this happen often - that you get "bored" with wines?

I can see it happening maybe with a wine which was new to you - something you were trying for the first time - but do you get bored with old favorites - wines which you've gone back to the store to purchase again and again?
no avatar
User

Thomas

Rank

Senior Flamethrower

Posts

3768

Joined

Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:23 pm

Re: Why 750ml vs 1L as standard btl size?

by Thomas » Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:01 pm

Nathan Smyth wrote:
Howie Hart wrote:However, a 750 ml bottle is just about the right size for 2 people to share over dinner.

I'll probably catch Hades for saying this, but for average-sized people [she maybe 120lbs, he maybe 160lbs], 375ml of 14%+ red wine is gonna get them zonked [especially she, at maybe 25% less body mass than he].

Which would be okay maybe once a week, but you start doing that every night and you better have a liver made outta titanium.



I disagree with the generality, but even if I did agree, lower alcohol wines do exist.

The one and only Louis Pasteur proclaimed 375 ml of wine daily for general health. That's about 3 glasses. Back then, the average Bordeaux didn't exceed 12%.
Thomas P
no avatar
User

Dale Williams

Rank

Compassionate Connoisseur

Posts

11112

Joined

Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:32 pm

Location

Dobbs Ferry, NY (NYC metro)

Re: Why 750ml vs 1L as standard btl size?

by Dale Williams » Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:39 pm

We generally don't finish a 750 ml bottle. Typically we go through between 2/3s and 3/4s of a bottle. We revisit the next day, though often on day 2 or 3 it ends up in vinegar crock. But I'd guess once or twice a week we finish a 750, and I certainly don't think either of us are "zonked" at that time. I'd guess if we finish a bottle it's me drinking at least 2/3s. so probably between 3 & 4 standard drinks. Part of the difference is typically I probably open as she's cooking. We have a little, then some with dinner, and then some over evening. 16-18 oz of wine over 3-4 hours doesn't zonk me (I'm about 225, Betsy is maybe 115, though please dont tell her I discussed her weight online!).

I generally like variety and matching foods to dinner, so definitely would not be interested in bigger bottles to visit more times. While I might not call it getting bored with favorites, I have no desire to drink the same wine again and again.
no avatar
User

Robin Garr

Rank

Forum Janitor

Posts

21609

Joined

Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:44 pm

Location

Louisville, KY

Re: Why 750ml vs 1L as standard btl size?

by Robin Garr » Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:41 pm

Dale Williams wrote:We generally don't finish a 750 ml bottle. Typically we go through between 2/3s and 3/4s of a bottle. ... I generally like variety and matching foods to dinner, so definitely would not be interested in bigger bottles to visit more times. While I might not call it getting bored with favorites, I have no desire to drink the same wine again and again.

Total agreement from here on both counts, Dale.
no avatar
User

Robin Garr

Rank

Forum Janitor

Posts

21609

Joined

Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:44 pm

Location

Louisville, KY

Re: Why 750ml vs 1L as standard btl size?

by Robin Garr » Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:04 pm

Mike Jacobs wrote:Just wondering why 3/4 liter became the norm rather than a nice round 1.0 liter? :?:

This is a great thread! I'll probably feature it as the topic of tomorrow's 30 Second Wine Advisor, so keep the historical and cultural factoids coming ...
no avatar
User

Mike Jacobs

Rank

Wine geek

Posts

21

Joined

Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:17 am

Re: Why 750ml vs 1L as standard btl size?

by Mike Jacobs » Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:37 pm

Robin Garr wrote:
Mike Jacobs wrote:Just wondering why 3/4 liter became the norm rather than a nice round 1.0 liter? :?:

This is a great thread! I'll probably feature it as the topic of tomorrow's 30 Second Wine Advisor, so keep the historical and cultural factoids coming ...

Wow that's cool! thanks :)
http://the-wine-rack.blogspot.com
no avatar
User

Victorwine

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

2031

Joined

Thu May 18, 2006 9:51 pm

Re: Why 750ml vs 1L as standard btl size?

by Victorwine » Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:17 pm

Great topic and discussions. But I think we are losing sight of one important fact. Those “larger” bottles do have a purpose. An age worthy wine does age differently in larger version bottles. I guess we can argue that for the most part most wines produced today are meant to be drunk (or “ready to drink”) upon release, but surely somewhere hidden in the library cellars of the wineries are wines stored in “larger” bottles.

Salute
no avatar
User

Alan Wolfe

Rank

On Time Out status

Posts

2633

Joined

Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:34 am

Location

West Virginia

Re: Why 750ml vs 1L as standard btl size?

by Alan Wolfe » Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:11 pm

I seem to remember a comment by an Englishman, a wine journalist as I recall, commenting that he was in favor of the 500mL bottle as being "the amount of wine a gentleman of prudent habits could comfortably consume at a meal." That makes some sense to me. What that may or may not have to do with the standard 750mL bottle Ior this conversation I hesitate to profess.
no avatar
User

ClarkDGigHbr

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

481

Joined

Sat May 06, 2006 7:16 pm

Location

Gig Harbor, WA

Re: Why 750ml vs 1L as standard btl size?

by ClarkDGigHbr » Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:28 am

Nathan Smyth wrote:
ClarkDGigHbr wrote:That means the larger bottle would sit partially consumed an additional day, which then increases the likelihood I would get bored with it or it gets oxidized.

I don't think I've ever seen that sentiment expressed on a wine bulletin board.

Does this happen often - that you get "bored" with wines?

I can see it happening maybe with a wine which was new to you - something you were trying for the first time - but do you get bored with old favorites - wines which you've gone back to the store to purchase again and again?


So many wines, so little time ... . Having an open bottle hang around for a fourth meal just doesn't sound all that thrilling. Of course, if the wine is really a favorite blockbuster, I tend to drink more of it per meal, and even get my wife to join in. :wink: Of course, I could just give the remainder to one of my neighbors; they appreciate receiving the partial bottles of nice wine I periodically carry over to them.

-- Clark
no avatar
User

JeanF

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

136

Joined

Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:04 pm

Re: Why 750ml vs 1L as standard btl size?

by JeanF » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:59 am

The best answer that I have had as to why the standard bottle is not 100cl but 75cl came from a Bordeaux producer:

"because 75cl is just not enough for two for a dinner"

so you see, it's all a marketing trick to make us enjoy more wines
www.moselfinewines.com
Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest

Powered by phpBB ® | phpBB3 Style by KomiDesign