The place for all things wine, focused on serious wine discussions.
User avatar
User

Robin Garr

Rank

Forum Janitor

Posts

17480

Joined

Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:44 pm

Location

Louisville, KY

WTN /Wine Advisor: Screwcap protects freshness?

by Robin Garr » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:09 pm

Screwcap protects freshness?

Shopping the other day for another crisp, refreshing Sauvignon Blanc for this month's Wine Focus, I spotted a good-looking bottle from South Africa at a price that seemed more than fair.

Great! I snapped it up, and then ... I hate it when this happens: I got the bottle of 2005 Durbanville Hills South Africa Sauvignon Blanc home, entered it into my records and ... doggone it! I had bought the same wine at the same store and reported on it two years and three months ago!

What in the heck is a reputable retailer doing leaving a wine meant for early consumption on the shelf for all that time? The bottle was so shiny that they must have dusted the darn thing from time to time to keep it looking new. Adding insult to injury, they had raised the price 50 cents, too, although at least that's a lot lower rate of inflation than gasoline.

I thought about taking it back for an exchange, but then I noticed the sturdy, modern metal screw cap. Say! This could set up an interesting experiment!

Normally, I would be slightly wary of a modestly priced Sauvignon Blanc under a natural cork - and even more so under synthetic - even three years after the vintage. I wouldn't expect it to be around the bend, but certainly I wouldn't count on it for freshness.

But a screwcap - the modern, sturdy Stelvin brand and its competitors, anyway - comes about as close to a fully secure airtight closure as you're going to get. I still had my published notes on this wine from April 19, 2006.

How would the wine have fared under the screwcap? Did the sturdy stopper hold it without a change, or had it faded badly? I would open the new bottle, compare notes with the old, and - if it wasn't exactly rigorous research - at least I would have a data point.

As it turned out, the results were somewhere in between. Tasted over two years ago, the then-young wine was almost over-the-top in its vivid, exuberant fruit, striking me as an almost conscious effort to emulate the style of New Zealand's iconic Cloudy Bay.

Tasted this week, a bottle from the same lot had shed some of that Technicolor, even under the screwcap. But it was still deliciously fresh, retained its crisp limey notes and interesting green-chile aromas. Frankly, I rate it a better wine now because of the relative elegance and balance it had gained.

Score one for the screw cap: It didn't "fossilize" the wine unchanged, but it had kept it well and actually fostered beneficial development in the bottle.

I'd be interested to hear about your experiences with screw capped bottles that have been held for a while. Is the screw cap proving out for you as a closure for keeping fresh-style wines fresh and ageworthy wines with style? If you've a story to tell, I hope you'll join in this conversation.

Durbanville Hills 2005 Durbanville South Africa Sauvignon Blanc ($12.49)

Clear, pale straw color. Very fresh and properly aromatic for the variety, a good blend of bright citric limey notes and a discreet green-chile aroma. Plenty of fresh, juicy lime on the palate, quenching and fresh. There's some texture here - it's not a light-bodied wine - but the fresh citric flavors make it an exceptionally good wine for sipping chilled on a hot summer evening. U.S. importer: Brown-Forman Beverages Worldwide, Louisville. (July 15, 2008)

FOOD MATCH: A natural seafood wine. It was wonderful with an aromatic, gently spicy Zanzibari fish and coconut soup, a recipe for which I thank my Finnish online pal Otto N., who presented it in a recent FoodLovers Discussion Group conversation.

VALUE: Prices vary around the nation from $10 to $17; it's certainly a fine buy at the lower end of that range.

WHEN TO DRINK: As discussed, its sturdy metal screwcap seems to retain freshness well, although its almost over-exuberant character has fallen back to something a bit more elegant over two years on the retail shelf.

WEB LINK: You'll find a report on this specific wine on the winery Website at this link:
http://www.wine.co.za/Directory/Wine.aspx?WINEID=11557

FIND THIS WINE ONLINE:
Find vendors and check prices for Durbanville Hills Sauvignon Blanc on Wine-Searcher.com:
http://www.wine-searcher.com/find/Durba ... g_site=WLP

User avatar
User

David M. Bueker

Rank

Riesling Guru

Posts

22550

Joined

Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:52 pm

Location

Connecticut

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: Screwcap protects freshness?

by David M. Bueker » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:10 pm

And it didn't develop reductive characteristics? Paul White will be so disappointed.
There behind the glass lies a real blade of grass. Be careful as you pass. Move along. Move along.
User avatar
User

Cynthia Wenslow

Rank

Pizza Princess

Posts

5788

Joined

Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:32 pm

Location

The Third Coast

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: Screwcap protects freshness?

by Cynthia Wenslow » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:14 pm

You know, I just can't decide about this issue.

A close friend is pretty vehemently anti-screwcap, but has yet to show me that it is a problem in wines meant for short-term drinking. And your report today, Robin, does nothing to help his argument! So thanks for that! :wink:

However, to further muddy the waters, I just read this article this week.

"We started at the high end, because we are convinced that screw tops are perfect for fine wines that need to age, as they protect them better than cork from oxidation," said Gregory Patriat, in charge of bottling at Boisset.
User avatar
User

Robin Garr

Rank

Forum Janitor

Posts

17480

Joined

Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:44 pm

Location

Louisville, KY

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: Screwcap protects freshness?

by Robin Garr » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:22 pm

David M. Bueker wrote:And it didn't develop reductive characteristics? Paul White will be so disappointed.

I have judged wine in Sydney with Paul, and he's a hell of a nice guy, a Midwestern US boy turned Kiwi. I respect his expertise, but from the beginning of his public position about reductiveness I have harbored some doubt about whether he is fully operating within his job description there.

Short answer: Reductiveness was not an issue with the Durbanville, not in April 2006 and not in July 2008. My impression is that reductiveness was an issue with early screwcap production until the winery peeps learned how to handle it.
User avatar
User

Oswaldo Costa

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

1919

Joined

Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:30 am

Location

São Paulo, Brazil

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: Screwcap protects freshness?

by Oswaldo Costa » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:27 pm

I just picked up some bottles of Laroche chablis from 2004 and 2005 in part because they come in screwcap. I hope to perform an experiment like yours, but won't be able to report on it for two or three years...

Even if a screwcap is completely airtight, the little bit of oxygen between the liquid and the screwcap must promote some change over time. And that little bit of oxygen is already more than in a regular bottle, since the volume previously occupied by the cork now contains air.

I've lost too many bottles to bad corks, but nobody knows how long a great Bordeaux, that would ordinarlily take, say, 20 years to become optimal with the slow oxygen entry of a cork, would take to reach the same point, if such is even possible, with a screwcap. Maybe 100 years! Then what kind of a blessing would that be?
"I went on a rigorous diet that eliminated alcohol, fat and sugar. In two weeks, I lost 14 days." Tim Maia, Brazilian singer-songwriter.
User avatar
User

David M. Bueker

Rank

Riesling Guru

Posts

22550

Joined

Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:52 pm

Location

Connecticut

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: Screwcap protects freshness?

by David M. Bueker » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:43 pm

Oswaldo Costa wrote:nobody knows how long a great Bordeaux, that would ordinarlily take, say, 20 years to become optimal with the slow oxygen entry of a cork, would take to reach the same point, if such is even possible, with a screwcap. Maybe 100 years! Then what kind of a blessing would that be?


one for your heirs
There behind the glass lies a real blade of grass. Be careful as you pass. Move along. Move along.
no avatar
User

Michael Pronay

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

320

Joined

Mon May 01, 2006 1:47 pm

Location

Vienna, Austria

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: Screwcap protects freshness?

by Michael Pronay » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:04 pm

Oswaldo Costa wrote:I've lost too many bottles to bad corks, but nobody knows how long a great Bordeaux, that would ordinarlily take, say, 20 years to become optimal with the slow oxygen entry of a cork, would take to reach the same point, if such is even possible, with a screwcap. Maybe 100 years! Then what kind of a blessing would that be?

Sorry to contradict, but that is simlpy *not* true.

There is anecdotical evidence of Burgundy (1966 Monthelie, an experimental bottling done by the Universty of Dijon, Michel Laroche has tasted id, it was perfectly evolved, and it was the final kick to go screwcaps for his Chablis) with some 40 years of age. And there is Peter Gago (Penfold's chief wine-maker) with top reds for well over a decade now: "Of course they age and develop, although at a slightly slower pace: just as bottles from a very cool cellar compared to a normal one. But then they age and develop uniformly, which is definitely not the case under bark corks where bottle variation is inevitable."
Ceterum censeo corticem esse delendam
no avatar
User

Oliver McCrum

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

997

Joined

Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:08 am

Location

Oakland, CA; Cigliè, Piedmont

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: Screwcap protects freshness?

by Oliver McCrum » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:23 pm

Oswaldo Costa wrote:Even if a screwcap is completely airtight, the little bit of oxygen between the liquid and the screwcap must promote some change over time. And that little bit of oxygen is already more than in a regular bottle, since the volume previously occupied by the cork now contains air.


This isn't true either. That space is sparged with inert gas.
Oliver
Oliver McCrum Wines
User avatar
User

Oswaldo Costa

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

1919

Joined

Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:30 am

Location

São Paulo, Brazil

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: Screwcap protects freshness?

by Oswaldo Costa » Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:23 pm

Michael Pronay wrote:
Oswaldo Costa wrote:I've lost too many bottles to bad corks, but nobody knows how long a great Bordeaux, that would ordinarlily take, say, 20 years to become optimal with the slow oxygen entry of a cork, would take to reach the same point, if such is even possible, with a screwcap. Maybe 100 years! Then what kind of a blessing would that be?

Sorry to contradict, but that is simlpy *not* true.

There is anecdotical evidence of Burgundy (1966 Monthelie, an experimental bottling done by the Universty of Dijon, Michel Laroche has tasted id, it was perfectly evolved, and it was the final kick to go screwcaps for his Chablis) with some 40 years of age. And there is Peter Gago (Penfold's chief wine-maker) with top reds for well over a decade now: "Of course they age and develop, although at a slightly slower pace: just as bottles from a very cool cellar compared to a normal one. But then they age and develop uniformly, which is definitely not the case under bark corks where bottle variation is inevitable."


Delighted to hear that.
"I went on a rigorous diet that eliminated alcohol, fat and sugar. In two weeks, I lost 14 days." Tim Maia, Brazilian singer-songwriter.
User avatar
User

Mark Lipton

Rank

Oenochemist

Posts

4352

Joined

Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:18 pm

Location

Indiana

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: Screwcap protects freshness?

by Mark Lipton » Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:26 pm

Oliver McCrum wrote:
Oswaldo Costa wrote:Even if a screwcap is completely airtight, the little bit of oxygen between the liquid and the screwcap must promote some change over time. And that little bit of oxygen is already more than in a regular bottle, since the volume previously occupied by the cork now contains air.


This isn't true either. That space is sparged with inert gas.


And the sulfites/SO2 added before bottling will rapidly consume any oxygen that does enter the bottle at bottling (mostly dissolved in the wine, I'd guess). However, Michael Pronay and I have gone round on this subject: it's just not clear how much of bottle development is dependent on oxygen; there are both oxidative and non-oxidative reactions associated with aging.

Mark Lipton
User avatar
User

Oswaldo Costa

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

1919

Joined

Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:30 am

Location

São Paulo, Brazil

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: Screwcap protects freshness?

by Oswaldo Costa » Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:30 pm

Oliver McCrum wrote:
Oswaldo Costa wrote:Even if a screwcap is completely airtight, the little bit of oxygen between the liquid and the screwcap must promote some change over time. And that little bit of oxygen is already more than in a regular bottle, since the volume previously occupied by the cork now contains air.


This isn't true either. That space is sparged with inert gas.


Wow, I'm amazed I've never heard this before. :oops:

Oliver, is this true for all, or at least most, winemakers?

This must mean that, with corks, over time the inert gas seeps and is replaced by air, so that evolution is due to oxygention and other, non-oxygenation causes, whereas aging in an airtight screwcap is due only to the non-oxygenation causes?
"I went on a rigorous diet that eliminated alcohol, fat and sugar. In two weeks, I lost 14 days." Tim Maia, Brazilian singer-songwriter.
User avatar
User

Mark Lipton

Rank

Oenochemist

Posts

4352

Joined

Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:18 pm

Location

Indiana

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: Screwcap protects freshness?

by Mark Lipton » Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:07 pm

Oswaldo Costa wrote:This must mean that, with corks, over time the inert gas seeps and is replaced by air, so that evolution is due to oxygention and other, non-oxygenation causes, whereas aging in an airtight screwcap is due only to the non-oxygenation causes?


Screwcaps aren't completely airtight, either, Oswaldo. How much gas exchange they allow is determined by the liner used in the screwcap. What is true is that the screwcaps allow less gas exchange than most corks, and (this is key) are far more uniform in their performance.

Mark Lipton
no avatar
User

Oliver McCrum

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

997

Joined

Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:08 am

Location

Oakland, CA; Cigliè, Piedmont

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: Screwcap protects freshness?

by Oliver McCrum » Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:47 pm

Not to mention that there are different liners available that allow differing (but consistent) amounts of oxygen through.

I have to say that this is the wine issue with the most misinformation attached to it. People are always saying 'well, I suppose it's okay for wines that don't have to age' but I don't know why that would be true either.

I hate cork.
Oliver
Oliver McCrum Wines
User avatar
User

Bob Hower

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

315

Joined

Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:58 pm

Location

Louisville, KY

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: Screwcap protects freshness?

by Bob Hower » Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:33 pm

It sort of amazes me how interesting this topic actually is, though I guess only for wine geeks. I watched the film mentioned in the post listed below, and found one of the most interesting segments to be the one where two hot-shot young sommeliers tasted from two bottles of identical wine, but one had been aged under cork, and one under screw cap. They guessed correctly which was which, and described an experience much like Robin's.
Wine Confidential (TV Show)
by Howie Hart on Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:25 pm

Like Oswaldo, I'm interested in the details of how the inert gas is actually put into the bottle, and if all wine makers do this, since I was unaware of this practice.

Wow, I'm amazed I've never heard this before.

Oliver, is this true for all, or at least most, winemakers?


2 more questions:
Could someone please define for me "reductiveness"?
Are "Sulphites/SO2" the same thing, or 2 different things?

Thanks. Good topic.
no avatar
User

Mark Willstatter

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

436

Joined

Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:20 pm

Location

Puget Sound

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: Screwcap protects freshness?

by Mark Willstatter » Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:27 pm

Oswaldo Costa wrote:
Oliver McCrum wrote:
Oswaldo Costa wrote:Even if a screwcap is completely airtight, the little bit of oxygen between the liquid and the screwcap must promote some change over time. And that little bit of oxygen is already more than in a regular bottle, since the volume previously occupied by the cork now contains air.


This isn't true either. That space is sparged with inert gas.


Wow, I'm amazed I've never heard this before. :oops:

Oliver, is this true for all, or at least most, winemakers?



Oswaldo, no "oops" necessary. I've read about sparging with nitrogen but the practice is very far from universal. In, as far as I know, *none* of the wineries in the area where was most familiar with practices (Sierra Foothills, California) sparged with inert gas.

I would point out a different error in your original analysis, though - the "headroom" (air space) in a screwcap bottle is typically *not* larger than it is in a cork-finished bottle. That's because the bottles aren't the same: in addition to having the threaded top, a bottle destined to be screwcapped is actually smaller, the volume reduced compared to a "normal" bottle to account for the missing cork.
User avatar
User

Sue Courtney

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

1967

Joined

Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:33 pm

Location

Auckland, NZ

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: Screwcap protects freshness?

by Sue Courtney » Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:32 pm

Robin Garr wrote:
David M. Bueker wrote:And it didn't develop reductive characteristics? Paul White will be so disappointed.

I have judged wine in Sydney with Paul, and he's a hell of a nice guy, a Midwestern US boy turned Kiwi. I respect his expertise, but from the beginning of his public position about reductiveness I have harbored some doubt about whether he is fully operating within his job description there.

Short answer: Reductiveness was not an issue with the Durbanville, not in April 2006 and not in July 2008. My impression is that reductiveness was an issue with early screwcap production until the winery peeps learned how to handle it.


If anyone read my recent notes in Wine Focus - a tasting of eight sauvignon blancs from around the world with both screwcaps and corks, the only reductive one was a cork-closed one from Sancerre. In my opinion, it's not a factor of the screwcap, it's a factor of the winemaker's sulphur regime.

As for aging, I think that any sauvignon blanc that is well made and not over endowed with methoxypyrazine characters, will age quite will with a good closure, be that screwcap or one of those rare, perfect fitting, top grade, uncontaminated corks. I think it was as a response in that same thread that I reported on drinking a 19-year old cork-closed Cloudy Bay sauvignon blanc and it was a very enjoyable experience.

Cheers,
Sue
User avatar
User

Oswaldo Costa

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

1919

Joined

Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:30 am

Location

São Paulo, Brazil

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: Screwcap protects freshness?

by Oswaldo Costa » Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:42 pm

Mark Willstatter wrote:I would point out a different error in your original analysis, though - the "headroom" (air space) in a screwcap bottle is typically *not* larger than it is in a cork-finished bottle. That's because the bottles aren't the same: in addition to having the threaded top, a bottle destined to be screwcapped is actually smaller, the volume reduced compared to a "normal" bottle to account for the missing cork.


Thanks, Mark, this thread is teaching me a lot.
"I went on a rigorous diet that eliminated alcohol, fat and sugar. In two weeks, I lost 14 days." Tim Maia, Brazilian singer-songwriter.
User avatar
User

David M. Bueker

Rank

Riesling Guru

Posts

22550

Joined

Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:52 pm

Location

Connecticut

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: Screwcap protects freshness?

by David M. Bueker » Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:50 pm

Sue Courtney wrote:
If anyone read my recent notes in Wine Focus - a tasting of eight sauvignon blancs from around the world with both screwcaps and corks, the only reductive one was a cork-closed one from Sancerre. In my opinion, it's not a factor of the screwcap, it's a factor of the winemaker's sulphur regime.


I mostly agree with that. I'm not sure it's solely related to sulfur, but I do believe that more experienced wineries have the issue knocked.
There behind the glass lies a real blade of grass. Be careful as you pass. Move along. Move along.
no avatar
User

Mark Willstatter

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

436

Joined

Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:20 pm

Location

Puget Sound

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: Screwcap protects freshness?

by Mark Willstatter » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:00 pm

Sue Courtney wrote:If anyone read my recent notes in Wine Focus - a tasting of eight sauvignon blancs from around the world with both screwcaps and corks, the only reductive one was a cork-closed one from Sancerre. In my opinion, it's not a factor of the screwcap, it's a factor of the winemaker's sulphur regime.



Sue, just curious - what led you to conclude that a winemaker's "sulphur regime" would cause a wine to have reductive qualities?
User avatar
User

Victorwine

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

1680

Joined

Thu May 18, 2006 10:51 pm

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: Screwcap protects freshness?

by Victorwine » Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:44 pm

Question for Mark Lipton- for oxidation to occur doesn’t reduction have to take place and for reduction to occur doesn’t oxidation have to take place? Back in HS I was taught to think of OIL RIG when thinking of Redox reactions. (Oxidation is loss of electron, Reduction is gain of electron).

Salute
no avatar
User

Steve Slatcher

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

830

Joined

Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:51 pm

Location

Manchester, England

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: Screwcap protects freshness?

by Steve Slatcher » Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:49 am

Mark Lipton wrote:Screwcaps aren't completely airtight, either, Oswaldo. How much gas exchange they allow is determined by the liner used in the screwcap. What is true is that the screwcaps allow less gas exchange than most corks, and (this is key) are far more uniform in their performance.

This is probably true from anecdotal evidence, but the study often used to support these statement was based on corks that were not in contact with liquid. I admit that I;m partly saying this to be picky. But also very much in the hope that someone, you perhaps Mark, will say there has been subsequent work to show it is true also for corked wine bottles stored horizontally.
User avatar
User

Oswaldo Costa

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

1919

Joined

Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:30 am

Location

São Paulo, Brazil

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: Screwcap protects freshness?

by Oswaldo Costa » Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:39 am

Thought: half bottles and regular bottles that are sparged with inert gas should mature at similar speed during the first years, before seepage introduces a higher oxygen-to-wine ratio in half bottles. This would affect me directly because I sometimes I buy half bottles as a way to drink something earlier, since the conventional wisdom is that they mature faster. Now that Oliver has opened this Pandora's Box, I would want to know if a half bottle is sparged or not. This information should be mandatory on the label, like alcohol content...

Here I go. Two days ago I didn't even know this was done. Now I still don't know how widespread the practice is, but am already militating for legislation! :)
"I went on a rigorous diet that eliminated alcohol, fat and sugar. In two weeks, I lost 14 days." Tim Maia, Brazilian singer-songwriter.
no avatar
User

Rick Hotaling

Rank

Just got here

Posts

2

Joined

Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:59 am

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: Screwcap protects freshness?

by Rick Hotaling » Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:36 pm

Ah, new to the "blog" world but here goes.....I sell wine for a living, @ my small store in Connecticut, and I often have this discussion of which is better, or should I say, "which do you prefer" with my customers. Seeing your story today made me go right to the print article button to show one of my shoppers. I myself believe in the twists and think that they are really good especially with the reseal. Who needs vacuum stoppers, that when you bump them accidentally they breath out and you loose out without knowing it? Twist it up tight and its there ready to go the next night. I've had nothing but good luck myself. Enjoyed your article. Being a shop owner, the one thing I might say on the rotation.... The lack there-of actually may have come from a warehouse or supplier. They may well have had a "buried" case, or perhaps bottles returned to them, which they passed right back out. I have had instances where I'll get an "old" bottle back in that actually has another stores sticker on it, meaning the warehouse got it back from someone else....those circulation problems do occur, though not often... thank heavens! Rick :D
User avatar
User

Robin Garr

Rank

Forum Janitor

Posts

17480

Joined

Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:44 pm

Location

Louisville, KY

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: Screwcap protects freshness?

by Robin Garr » Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:47 pm

Rick Hotaling wrote:Ah, new to the "blog" world but here goes.....I sell wine for a living, @ my small store in Connecticut

Rick, thanks for breaking the ice ... it is always a delight to welcome a new participant in our forum!

I like to say this place isn't a "blog" exactly, since most of us have been doing this stuff since about 20 years before blogs were invented; call us a digital wine magazine and encyclopedia with a virtual clubhouse and pub attached, and you'll have the general idea. :)

In any case, thanks for introducing yourself, and I hope you'll feel free to hang around and take part in our online conversations. Every discussion you see is open to all, and you do not have to wait to be introduced.

If you don't mind telling us, say a little about your store. Chances are good that we have some participants in your neighborhood or near it, and they might like to check you out if they don't know you already.
Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Tim York, Yahoo [Bot] and 7 guests

Powered by phpBB ® | phpBB3 Style by KomiDesign