Founded by the late Daniel Rogov, focusing primarily on wines that are either kosher or Israeli.
no avatar
User

Gamliel K

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

140

Joined

Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:40 pm

Location

Silver Spring, MD

Newsweek: Are Jews becoming lushes?

by Gamliel K » Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:08 pm

Dear All,

There is an short article in Newsweek suggesting that Jews, particularly Orthodox Jews, are developing alchohol abuse problems. I don't think the article was particularly well researched or written, but here is the link: http://www.newsweek.com/id/150497/output/print.

Gamliel
User avatar
User

Daniel Rogov

Rank

Resident Curmudgeon

Posts

12964

Joined

Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:10 am

Location

Tel Aviv, Israel

Re: Newsweek: Are Jews becoming lushes?

by Daniel Rogov » Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:50 pm

Gamliel, Hi....

There has been discussion within Israel as well that there has been a significant increase in alcoholic consumption among the haredim ('ultra-orthodox), that involving both wine and whiskey (especially the famous single-malts). The discussion includes speculation about alcoholism in general and over-drinking in particular. The problem is not often discussed within the haredi community as it is considered a taboo and not to be acknowledged openly, but some sociologists (Tel Aviv and Bar Ilan universities) suggest that the problem is brought about largely by a failure of the inner community to satisfy the perceived needs and frustrations of its members. Interestingly, the problem is not confined only to males.

To the best of my knowledge there is no data yet available nor any formal studies carried on.

Best
Rogov
no avatar
User

Yoni M

Rank

Wine geek

Posts

98

Joined

Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:39 pm

Location

Jerusalem

Re: Newsweek: Are Jews becoming lushes?

by Yoni M » Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:52 pm

Seems like a sensationalist piece to me, particularly considering their use of a solitary case of drunkenness as a segue to underscoring a putative communal problem. I would say that the awareness of alcoholism has grown in the Orthodox community in tandem with greater universal awareness; that more people from the community choose to come forward need not be an indication of a growing problem. I would also question the propriety of conflating Orthodox Jewish consumption habits with those of Israelis, as is done in the final paragraph of the article.
User avatar
User

Ilan T

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

195

Joined

Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:32 am

Location

Sacramento/Davis, CA

Re: Newsweek: Are Jews becoming lushes?

by Ilan T » Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:54 pm

Agreed. The Newsweek article is an example of a fabricated story and plain old poor journalism.
@winemakerguy
no avatar
User

EY Han

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

765

Joined

Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:27 pm

Location

Jerusalem, Israel

Re: Newsweek: Are Jews becoming lushes?

by EY Han » Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:31 pm

Yoni M wrote:I would also question the propriety of conflating Orthodox Jewish consumption habits with those of Israelis, as is done in the final paragraph of the article.


I was left with the same sentiment about the last paragraph in closing the article with a comparison between Israelis and Russians and American Jewish college students…

- E.Y.
no avatar
User

Greg Piatigorski

Rank

Cellar rat

Posts

12

Joined

Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:54 am

Location

San Ramon, CA

Re: Newsweek: Are Jews becoming lushes?

by Greg Piatigorski » Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:33 am

I have absolutely no issues with the last paragraph, its actually on point. My generation drank heavily, although less than our fathers, but I am simply stumped to see the amount of alcohol consumed by the next one. We seem like lightweights and trust me, on occasion and when feeling fine I can drink a lot without getting drunk (guess that protective gene does exist). What is more startling is that in decades past I met just a few women who drank heavily, but young women these days drink shot for shot with the guys and don't seem visibly affected (lots of training, it seems). I can assuredly say that my son and his friends drink way more than did I and my friends.
====================
Greg P.
User avatar
User

Ilan T

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

195

Joined

Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:32 am

Location

Sacramento/Davis, CA

Re: Newsweek: Are Jews becoming lushes?

by Ilan T » Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:07 pm

Greg Piatigorski wrote:I have absolutely no issues with the last paragraph, its actually on point. My generation drank heavily, although less than our fathers, but I am simply stumped to see the amount of alcohol consumed by the next one. We seem like lightweights and trust me, on occasion and when feeling fine I can drink a lot without getting drunk (guess that protective gene does exist). What is more startling is that in decades past I met just a few women who drank heavily, but young women these days drink shot for shot with the guys and don't seem visibly affected (lots of training, it seems). I can assuredly say that my son and his friends drink way more than did I and my friends.


Are you kidding? Even if what you are saying is right and the younger generation does drink more, you don't try to prove it by doing a study on a college campus. Trust me, in college the older generation drank too. Besides, if we're talking about Orthodox Jews, very few universities would give large enough sample sizes and already only looks at the segment of the population that is both Orthodox and enrolls in secular college. Take a look at Yeshiva University, for example, where their alcohol abuse rate is minuscule (http://media.www.yucommentator.com/medi ... 5258.shtml).

What bothered me more, however, was the assumption that the Israeli or Russian Jewish populations has anything to do with Orthodox Jews in America. I doubt the case in the first paragraph has anything to do with the "study" in the last one with Jewish college students, and Israeli Jews under 33. Across the board just terrible journalism.
@winemakerguy
User avatar
User

Ilan T

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

195

Joined

Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:32 am

Location

Sacramento/Davis, CA

Re: Newsweek: Are Jews becoming lushes?

by Ilan T » Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:12 pm

For more of my thoughts on the issue, check out my blog at http://themidnighttoker.wordpress.com/2 ... -newsweek/.
@winemakerguy
no avatar
User

Yoni M

Rank

Wine geek

Posts

98

Joined

Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:39 pm

Location

Jerusalem

Re: Newsweek: Are Jews becoming lushes?

by Yoni M » Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:45 pm

Hi Ilan,

Nice rant and nice blog. Keep it up!!
no avatar
User

Greg Piatigorski

Rank

Cellar rat

Posts

12

Joined

Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:54 am

Location

San Ramon, CA

Re: Newsweek: Are Jews becoming lushes?

by Greg Piatigorski » Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:53 pm

Ilan, I am talking about "kids" beyond college at this point, mid to late 20s. Not that I do not see college age kids drinking heavily and more than we did in our time. Although I will agree they are not Orthodox by any means.

Yet, that last paragraph you are having an issue with does not speak about Orthodox Jews. But all I can tell you is that in my days of working with some when I lived in Brooklyn (grew up and lived there before I moved to CA), I do recall Orthodox Jews drinking heavily, so again, no news here for me. We're talking downing LARGE shots, similar to what we Russian Jews are accustomed to.

Seriously, I see nothing in the article that I cannot agree with. You and I simply interact with different groups, that's all. And well, good for you.
====================
Greg P.
User avatar
User

Daniel Rogov

Rank

Resident Curmudgeon

Posts

12964

Joined

Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:10 am

Location

Tel Aviv, Israel

Re: Newsweek: Are Jews becoming lushes?

by Daniel Rogov » Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:16 pm

Several mini points:

1. I think it important to realize that when we used terms such as "orthodox" that there can be a vast difference between the use of that term in and outside of Israel.

2. A good deal of market analysis shows that observant Jews both in Israel and the USA are more "into" wine these days, that meaning to a great extent not a problem with alcoholism or overdrinking but an increasing awareness that nowhere in the wisdom of our forbears is it written that one has to drink bad wine with either prayers or meals.

3. At least within Israel and Brooklyn (where a generous percentage of the orthodox reside, data shows that the wine increase is not at all disturbing but the increase in consumption of single malt Scotch may offer cause for concern, especially among the 25-40 year old crowd.

Best
Rogov
User avatar
User

Ilan T

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

195

Joined

Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:32 am

Location

Sacramento/Davis, CA

Re: Newsweek: Are Jews becoming lushes?

by Ilan T » Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:46 pm

Greg Piatigorski wrote:Ilan, I am talking about "kids" beyond college at this point, mid to late 20s. Not that I do not see college age kids drinking heavily and more than we did in our time. Although I will agree they are not Orthodox by any means.

Yet, that last paragraph you are having an issue with does not speak about Orthodox Jews. But all I can tell you is that in my days of working with some when I lived in Brooklyn (grew up and lived there before I moved to CA), I do recall Orthodox Jews drinking heavily, so again, no news here for me. We're talking downing LARGE shots, similar to what we Russian Jews are accustomed to.

Seriously, I see nothing in the article that I cannot agree with. You and I simply interact with different groups, that's all. And well, good for you.


Again Greg,

I don't disagree with the article's point, I disagree with the way that the writer substantiated it. From the story in the beginning to the study about Israeli Jews to speak about Americans, relying on the outdated "kiddish club" phenomenon, using college students as a gauge for the general population, and its focus in and out of specifically Orthodox Jews. If indeed there are more drinking problems among Jews--and for all I know there might be--this particular article does not prove it.

Best,
Ilan
@winemakerguy
no avatar
User

Greg Piatigorski

Rank

Cellar rat

Posts

12

Joined

Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:54 am

Location

San Ramon, CA

Re: Newsweek: Are Jews becoming lushes?

by Greg Piatigorski » Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:58 am

Ilan, I do not visit college campuses nor do I intend to. My own experiences are based on HOME observed behavior and all I can is that the article is right on. You and I must travel in different circles.
====================
Greg P.
User avatar
User

Ilan T

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

195

Joined

Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:32 am

Location

Sacramento/Davis, CA

Re: Newsweek: Are Jews becoming lushes?

by Ilan T » Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:36 am

Greg Piatigorski wrote:Ilan, I do not visit college campuses nor do I intend to. My own experiences are based on HOME observed behavior and all I can is that the article is right on. You and I must travel in different circles.


Greg,

I do not disagree with you. All that I'm saying is that the article, while it may be totally correct in saying that Jews drink more now than before, does a terrible job of defining the scope of its claim, specifically by not specifying which populations it addresses (American Jews, Orthodox Jews worldwide, Russian-Israelis, young Israelis, etc.). Furthermore, the trends that the study cites seem irrelevant to the cases that the article cites: the man in the car and the Orthodox Union's membership are neither Israelis under 33, American college students, Russian Jews, or Jewish women in Los Angeles. Even if the claim was across the board (which the article does not state), it would be silly to suggest that such different populations from throughout the Jewish world can be compared just by their shared "Jewishness" in a way that would relate to their alcohol consuming habits.

Again, you may very well be right and I do not dispute your observations based on whatever goes down in your hometown in the slightest. You state a claim, namely that based on what you see Jews are drinking more than before, and cite evidence to support it based on what you have seen. No problem. The Newsweek article, on the other hand, neither states its claim with any reasonable measure of clarity nor brings any substantial evidence to support whatever claim it tries to make. Whether or not Jews "wrestle with alcohol abuse," it's bad journalism any way you slice it.

Best,
Ilan
@winemakerguy
no avatar
User

Yoni M

Rank

Wine geek

Posts

98

Joined

Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:39 pm

Location

Jerusalem

Re: Newsweek: Are Jews becoming lushes?

by Yoni M » Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:38 am

Greg,

Your personal experience with heavy drinking Orthodox Jews in Brooklyn is anecdotal, much like the story opening the Newsweek article, and should not be relied on to extrapolate far-reaching claims regarding a segment of the American population that numbers in the hundreds of thousands. If I were to witness instances of aberrant behavior from members of any ethnicity, race, or religion, I would exercise extreme caution before rushing to judgment, stripping the instance of its context, and asserting that such must be the practice of the entire community as well.

I don't base my perceptions of the entire Russian-Jewish community based on my encounters with the few self-described Russian-Jews that participate on wine boards, or the kind Russian-Israeli lady who rang me up at the grocery store yesterday. I don't dispute what you witnessed in Brooklyn and, as I mentioned in my prior post, I think that there are other sociological factors involved here. But I, for one, am wary of a stereotype backed by muddled statistics masquerading as journalism.
no avatar
User

Greg Piatigorski

Rank

Cellar rat

Posts

12

Joined

Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:54 am

Location

San Ramon, CA

Re: Newsweek: Are Jews becoming lushes?

by Greg Piatigorski » Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:10 pm

Yoni,

"Self-described"?

HUH!?

Please tell me you're kidding... I lived in Israel during Yom Kippur War (Ashdod), the year we left USSR, Brighton Beach after that. You really think I am posting as a fake Jew with little or limited contact with Russian Jewish community? Wow, truly amazing...
.
.
.
.
.
Ilan,

We seem to be in agreement on most points while disagreeing on little stuff.
====================
Greg P.
no avatar
User

Yoni M

Rank

Wine geek

Posts

98

Joined

Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:39 pm

Location

Jerusalem

Re: Newsweek: Are Jews becoming lushes?

by Yoni M » Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:32 pm

Hi Greg,

The use of the phrase "self-described" was not intended to pose question marks regarding authenticity, nor is that issue even germane to our discussion of the Newsweek article. You described yourself as a Russian Jew; therefore you are a self-described Russian Jew.
no avatar
User

Trevor F

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

250

Joined

Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:48 pm

Location

London

Re: Newsweek: Are Jews becoming lushes?

by Trevor F » Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:37 am

Gamliel K wrote:There is an short article in Newsweek suggesting that Jews, particularly Orthodox Jews, are developing alchohol abuse problems. Gamliel



.......... and some have developed drug abuse as well

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1009831.html

Makes you wonder where all the money comes from to dispense with great largesse to various Orthodox charities
User avatar
User

Daniel Rogov

Rank

Resident Curmudgeon

Posts

12964

Joined

Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:10 am

Location

Tel Aviv, Israel

Re: Newsweek: Are Jews becoming lushes?

by Daniel Rogov » Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:03 pm

Trevor, Hi...

I am beginning to think you are one of the most democratic people in the world as you seem to have an equal bone to pick with every race, sex, religion and nationality as well as with just about every national or regional cuisine.

In all seriousness, I believe we will not find any culture or sub-culture that is free of problems with alcohol, drugs, incest, larceny and the like. The danger is in extending from a small, perhaps even a miniscule group, to the general population.

Ye Faithful Mother Goose
Rogov

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Isaac Chavel and 2 guests

Powered by phpBB ® | phpBB3 Style by KomiDesign