The place for all things wine, focused on serious wine discussions.

Wine in the Bible versus wine today?

Moderators: Jenise, Robin Garr, David M. Bueker

no avatar
User

Mark Lipton

Rank

Oenochemist

Posts

4285

Joined

Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:18 pm

Location

Indiana

Re: Wine in the Bible versus wine today?

by Mark Lipton » Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:46 am

A couple of other thoughts about wine in Biblical times:

The wines were fermented in clay amphorae that were made watertight by sealing with pine pitch, so the wines of the times most likely had a piney character that today can be found only in retsina.

In this era, wine (and beer) was safer to drink than water, so water was made safe to drink by mixing it with wine. This is why diluted wine was the preferred drink for children, as weird as that sounds to a modern reader. Dilution was also necessitated by the coarse and sweet flavors of the wine made from uncontrolled fermentation.

Mark Lipton
no avatar
User

Jason Hagen

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

813

Joined

Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:03 pm

Location

SoCal

Re: Wine in the Bible versus wine today?

by Jason Hagen » Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:53 am

David M. Bueker wrote:
Jason Hagen wrote:
David M. Bueker wrote:Now getting totally wasted is not a good idea. Just ask Noah.

Yup! :oops:


Remeber Jason - there is always forgiveness.

Oh I remember often.

J
no avatar
User

Robin Garr

Rank

Forum Janitor

Posts

21609

Joined

Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:44 pm

Location

Louisville, KY

Re: Wine in the Bible versus wine today?

by Robin Garr » Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:38 am

creightond wrote:ok, lets continue with robins thread. the baptist concept of heaven? a place you can drink with your friends.

Hey, David! Off topic, I'm not sure what happened, but somehow your user name got converted into the kind of cryptic "screen name" that we prefer not to use in the forum. Mind if I go back into the system and change it to "David Creighton"? I won't do this until I get your okay, so you won't be surprised when your login changes.
no avatar
User

Mark S

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

1174

Joined

Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:28 pm

Location

CNY

Re: Wine in the Bible versus wine today?

by Mark S » Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:54 am

Daniel Rogov wrote:Vintners in ancient times knew as we do today that locating vineyards at higher altitudes, where there are greater temperature changes between night and day, would cause the fruit to ripen more slowly, adding to the sweetness of the fruit and its ability to produce fine wines.


Daniel - I doubt this is the only reason for the hillside plantings. Grapes, not being as particular as cereal grains and other fruits and vegetables likely were planted on more marginal land...which just happens to produce better grapes from the vines that stuggle so.
no avatar
User

creightond

Re: Wine in the Bible versus wine today?

by creightond » Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:36 pm

go ahead robin. somehow my settings got changed and i had to log in anew but couldn't remember any of the stuff; so created a new account and just did whatever was easiest. i'll surely do the same thing again sometime. sorry for the trouble.
no avatar
User

Victorwine

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

2031

Joined

Thu May 18, 2006 9:51 pm

Re: Wine in the Bible versus wine today?

by Victorwine » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:42 pm

Sorry David, I thought that was you, but the "just got here" and counter confused me.

Salute
no avatar
User

Robin Garr

Rank

Forum Janitor

Posts

21609

Joined

Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:44 pm

Location

Louisville, KY

Re: Wine in the Bible versus wine today?

by Robin Garr » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:54 pm

creightond wrote:go ahead robin. somehow my settings got changed and i had to log in anew but couldn't remember any of the stuff; so created a new account and just did whatever was easiest. i'll surely do the same thing again sometime. sorry for the trouble.

Okay, David, I'll do this after lunch ... in about an hour, if "creightond" won't log you in, try "David Creighton" instead.

And next time you get in a mess, just Email me ... I'll help clean up the spill in Aisle Four in a more elegant fashion ...
no avatar
User

Daniel Rogov

Rank

Resident Curmudgeon

Posts

0

Joined

Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:10 am

Location

Tel Aviv, Israel

Re: Wine in the Bible versus wine today?

by Daniel Rogov » Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:22 pm

Mark S wrote: - I doubt this is the only reason for the hillside plantings.



Mark, Hi.....

It was not so much hillside plantings as higher altitude plantings, those mostly on the plains that are to be found throughout the Judean Hills, the Galilee and the Golan. And indeed not more marginal areas, as the wine industry and grapes were considered among the major agricultural endeavors of the region at that time. (Josephus goes into this in some detail)

Best
Rogov
no avatar
User

Steve Slatcher

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

1047

Joined

Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:51 am

Location

Manchester, England

Re: Wine in the Bible versus wine today?

by Steve Slatcher » Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:54 pm

Daniel Rogov wrote:It was not so much hillside plantings as higher altitude plantings, those mostly on the plains that are to be found throughout the Judean Hills, the Galilee and the Golan.

And, going a bit further North, the Bekaa Valley, which is also a high altitude plain rather than a what we would typically think of as a valley.
Daniel Rogov wrote:And indeed not more marginal areas, as the wine industry and grapes were considered among the major agricultural endeavors of the region at that time.

I think grapes for wine were considered a high-value crop all over, but in more temperate climes they still tended to be grown in areas that are more marginal when it comes to other argicultural products. Partly because they tend to be the best places for high quality wines. Are you saying that in the Levant vineyards are more likely to be competing with other forms of agriculture? Perhaps because agriculture in general is more difficult...?
no avatar
User

Mark Lipton

Rank

Oenochemist

Posts

4285

Joined

Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:18 pm

Location

Indiana

Re: Wine in the Bible versus wine today?

by Mark Lipton » Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:12 pm

Steve Slatcher wrote:I think grapes for wine were considered a high-value crop all over, but in more temperate climes they still tended to be grown in areas that are more marginal when it comes to other argicultural products. Partly because they tend to be the best places for high quality wines. Are you saying that in the Levant vineyards are more likely to be competing with other forms of agriculture? Perhaps because agriculture in general is more difficult...?


In Tuscany, I believe it is said that olives were planted where cattle couldn't graze, and grapevines planted where olive trees wouldn't grow.

Mark Lipton
no avatar
User

RobertBB

Rank

Cellar rat

Posts

9

Joined

Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:31 am

Re: Wine in the Bible versus wine today?

by RobertBB » Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:09 pm

Jason Hagen wrote:Great thread. Robert, thanks for starting it and welcome to the board. I hope that when you enjoy a glass of wine, you'll post your thoughts and impressions here.

I consider myself a devout Christian and have been around this block a few times. It sounds like you are taking an extremely healthy approach.

Cheers,

Jason


Thank you, Jason. Glad to be here!
no avatar
User

Leanne S

Rank

Wine geek

Posts

59

Joined

Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:09 pm

Location

Sonoma County

Re: Wine in the Bible versus wine today?

by Leanne S » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:19 pm

"Eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart." --Kohelet
no avatar
User

Covert

Rank

NOT David Caruso

Posts

4065

Joined

Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:17 pm

Location

Albany, New York

Re: Wine in the Bible versus wine today?

by Covert » Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:08 pm

Robin Garr wrote:The lovely parable of the wedding feast at Cana leaves little doubt of that, with the custom of holding back the cheaper stuff until the revelers were sufficiently lubricated not to notice.


But at Cana you had the opposite thing going on. When guests ran out of wine, Jesus’ mother said, "They have no more wine." Jesus answered, "Dear woman, why do you involve me?

Spoken like a guilty man. So what did he do? He knew that he had saved the good wine, rather than the cheap wine, because he undoubtedly knew the likes of most wedding goers couldn’t appreciate good wine. Why waste it?

But, as we all sometimes do when we are a little tipsy and the wine runs low, he recanted. So he had his servents fetch some jars and fill them with water. When the servents weren’t any longer paying attention, Jesus simply put the good wine jars in the spots where the water jars had been, and told the servants to pour them for the guests. He figured he could have a two-fer: getting around being blamed for selfishness and getting credit for performing a miracle.

It always amazed me that such a stunt could have such legs. Magicians can make elephants disappear in broad daylight; how hard would it be to switch jugs in the dark with a bunch of drunks not even paying attention?

When you are faced with a phenomenon like this, the philosopher David Hume put it this way, in his famous Miracles argument: Which would be the greater miracle, that you could make such a switch under those circumstances, or that a man turned water into wine? The lesser miracle is usually the more intelligent explanation.
no avatar
User

Bob Henrick

Rank

Kamado Kommander

Posts

3919

Joined

Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:35 pm

Location

Lexington, Ky.

Re: Wine in the Bible versus wine today?

by Bob Henrick » Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:15 pm

Robert B wrote:Wow, thank you all for the replies!

I have always believed that wine drinking was something that was "off limits" for the Christian, however, after an in-depth study of scripture, I believe that enjoying wine is a liberty that we have, providing we use it responsibly.

I am likely going to be getting married next year, and I would love to have a glass of wine once in a while for a special dinner together as a couple, starting with our honeymoon!

Thank you!
Robert


Robert first welcome to the forum. Second, I am going to take exception with your characterization of having a glass once in a while with special dinners (only?). I heartily endorse the practice of a glass or three with dinner everyday!
Bob Henrick
no avatar
User

Graeme Gee

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

177

Joined

Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:13 am

Location

Sydney, Australia

Re: Wine in the Bible versus wine today?

by Graeme Gee » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:02 am

Bob Henrick wrote:
Robert B wrote:...I am likely going to be getting married next year, and I would love to have a glass of wine once in a while for a special dinner together as a couple, starting with our honeymoon!


Robert first welcome to the forum. Second, I am going to take exception with your characterization of having a glass once in a while with special dinners (only?). I heartily endorse the practice of a glass or three with dinner everyday!

I was going to add - I have dinner once in a while, so I have wine once in a while as well. Pretty much at the same times, now I come to think of it...
cheers,
Graeme
no avatar
User

JC (NC)

Rank

Lifelong Learner

Posts

6679

Joined

Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:23 pm

Location

Fayetteville, NC

Re: Wine in the Bible versus wine today?

by JC (NC) » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:42 am

Welcome to the forum Robert. I agree with wine for the honeymoon but limit yourselves to one or two glasses. If alcohol is not a part of your routine you could suffer from overindulging. Also, you might want to choose a wine that is relatively low in alchohol such as a Riesling Spatlese or Italian Prosecco or a Brachetto d'Acqui which is a sparkling rose' wine. These are also generally fruity wines that are more pleasurable for a newcomer to wine than some wines with more tannin.

In November I attended a wine dinner connected with the exhibit on the Dead Sea Scrolls at a museum in Raleigh, NC. We had two speakers at the dinner and they did emphasize that wine was generally mixed with water in Biblical times. Some of the earlier comments have given reasons for mixing the wine with water.

I'm familiar with a number of Bible passages that talk about tending the vineyards, enjoying wine, etc. and some that talk about the consequences of getting drunk. I definitely agree that the Bible does not condemn drinking wine--only the abuse of drinking alcoholic beverages in excess.
Previous

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest

Powered by phpBB ® | phpBB3 Style by KomiDesign