Founded by the late Daniel Rogov, focusing primarily on wines that are either kosher or Israeli.
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David Raccah

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The 1 year anniversary of Daniel Rogov's passing

by David Raccah » Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:00 pm

My take on ths industry and his passing:

http://kosherwinemusings.com/2012/09/07 ... s-passing/

I do miss him, but as I say in the post, the real loss, is the loss of continuity for the coming generation of wine lovers.
Checkout http://www.kosherwinemusings.com for my blogs on the world of kosher wines and follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/kosherwinemuse.
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Craig Winchell

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Re: The 1 year anniversary of Daniel Rogov's passing

by Craig Winchell » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:48 pm

While nobody felt positively about Rogov's death, and although it negatively impacted participation in this group, I believe many of the individuals in the group are healthier now than they were during Rogov's tenure, self assured in their knowledge of what they enjoy and why they enjoy them. This is an example of a loss ultimately acting positively upon those most impacted by the loss, through growth out of their former comfort zone.
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Gabriel Geller

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Re: The 1 year anniversary of Daniel Rogov's passing

by Gabriel Geller » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:15 pm

I second Craig's thoughts which reflects my impressions the more or less.
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David Raccah

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Re: The 1 year anniversary of Daniel Rogov's passing

by David Raccah » Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:32 pm

I was just posting on the other thread - that I heard nothing but grief for wanting to change the name of the forum to gain traction, and now at the 1 year anniversary - not a peep for two days or so! Anyway, I disagree, the voices are actually the same. To be fair I am the same, Yossie is the same, etc. Gabriel may have popped out a bit more, but Craig is Craig - so nothing changed there.

Some did not even comment when Rogov was around - is that what you mean. To me that absurd. Rogov never put anyone down for their opinions.

Either way, a sad loss, no real gain here - in my opinion.

David
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Craig Winchell

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Re: The 1 year anniversary of Daniel Rogov's passing

by Craig Winchell » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:14 pm

Well, David, I'm not sure what you were expecting. There were a host of relatively unsophisticated wine drinkers, largely asking for his tasting notes, both kosher and nonkosher. There were sophisticated wine drinkers of all kinds conversing with Rogov on a wide variety of topics, including those of nonkosher European wines. These have largely passed over to other forums, as Rogov is no longer available. The scope of this forum has narrowed from everything having to do with wine, to everything having to do with Israeli and kosher wine, and has largely been limited to kosher wine due to the nature of the partcipants. What I have seen is people here furnishing their own tasting notes, rather than Rogov's, when tasting notes have been requested. When opinions differed, there have been some lively exchanges. In general, you're correct, the participants have condensed into far fewer, with far fewer new participants, though I cannot help but feel that there must be lurkers. But you, for instance, are certainly more self-assured in your tasting notes and wine opinions, than you were in the shadow of Rogov. And the same is true of many.

I'm not sure how many new participants we can get with a narrowed scope of forum topics. I understand your pessimism at the lack of robustness in the nature of this forum, but I think there has been quite a change from the early days after Rogov, when the main topic was Rogov and his death. We've largely moved on, we're trying to make a future. we're looking forward rather than past. It's slow going, and it gets us down, but the choice is to make a future or abandon the forum to the past.
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Re: The 1 year anniversary of Daniel Rogov's passing

by David Raccah » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:40 pm

Indeed, I see your point. I do not want to make this another thread on the forum and all. I guess, like I tell everyone who asks - there will be no new Rogov. Some see that as a blessing and some see it as a sad state of fact, and some as both. Either way, the hope is that there is a growing desire for the future.

To one of your points, I would always post his notes and ytes - I now post my notes when asked, but mostly because they are on wines that Rogov never posted notes on - sad. I would have loved to hear his notes on the Carignan 2010 from Recanati, I am sure he tasted it, but no notes. Same could be said for the Assemblage wines.

In the end, I do miss him and I wanted to state that. After that, I guess it is damn the torpedoes full steam ahead - sad...

David
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Steven B

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Re: The 1 year anniversary of Daniel Rogov's passing

by Steven B » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:45 pm

As both a new member of the forum and a wine novice (most people on this forum have probably been drinking wine since before I was born) I have gained a tremendous amount of knowledge just reading what people on the forum have to say. However, when it comes to posting my own opinions, I feel a little intimidated due to my lack of experience especially since I haven't quite gotten the knack for describing wine yet. Unfortunately, I didn't discover the forum until after Rogov's passing so I cannot really know what things were like back then, but assuming there are more readers of the forum that are of my generation, (I'm 21) you guys are certainly helping to educate the next generation of oenophiles regardless of how participation in the forum may have declined.
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Gabriel Geller

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Re: The 1 year anniversary of Daniel Rogov's passing

by Gabriel Geller » Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:19 am

Craig is right in the sense that most the threads were then initiated by Rogov and most the posts - not all of them but most - were reactions to his notes and articles. As well, I believe that many people were essentially interested by chatting with him rather than interested by the other forumites' opinions or TNs.

I've been mostly active since his passing only but for several reasons. I've been a follower of the forum since its days on Strat's Place and an avid reader of Rogov's books and forums for years. However until a bit more than a year back, I was working and living in LA and wasn't spending much time online and used the forum mostly when I was looking for a TN for a specific wine and to follow what was going on in the industry. I was occasionally communicating with Rogov by emails but only once or twice on the main board with the last time just a few weeks before his passing regarding kosher restaurants in Paris.

As I've since gained indeed more confidence both in my wine knowledge and tasting abilities, and more importantly in my english-writing skills as a result of my US journey, I started to become more active on the forum to help keeping alive the discussion about Israeli and kosher wines as this place was and remains the most reliable source combining open-source and concentrated info on this industry as well as featuring wine and food talk by both insiders and passionate people from different horizons, cultures and backgrounds who just love wine, are open-minded and drink mostly kosher wines. With a number of forumites also drinking non-kosher wine and granting us with their experience and perspective, I believe that we keep here, though obviously not as much as when he was still around, most of the spirit instaurated by Rogov.

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GG
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Re: The 1 year anniversary of Daniel Rogov's passing

by Yossie Horwitz » Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:25 am

Without a doubt, following Rogov's passing many forumites became significantly more emboldened to express their opinion, leading to (a) active participation by many who were not active prior and (b) substantially more active participation and opinionated writing by many who were active before. While this may be characterized as a positive development (and I predicted as much in my annual Crystal Ball newsletter for 2012 (http://www.yossiescorkboard.com/?page_id=1425), the downside has been to drive away many of the more sophisticated and knowledgeable wine lovers who were here mainly to benefit from Rogov's vastly superior wine knowledge, breadth and depth of familiarity with the Israeli and kosher wine scene and to a much lesser degree, to communicate ideas amongst themselves. The bulk of these folks have unfortunately departed to the other side of the forum, gracing us only occasionally with their presence, likely as a result of the stark refocus on solely Israeli and kosher wines (which had obviously been the case for a long time, the name change only sharpened this from a perception perspective).

While the number of active participants has been reduced, with the continued increasing interest in kosher wine and developing sophistication of its consumers, coupled with the fact that this is the sole English-speaking forum to discuss kosher wine, I believe the forum will continue to attract new participants who can and will be active and positive contributors. Patience is required and those of us who are active help keep the forum active, alive and interesting while more folks "discover" the forum and join.

I do think that continuing to maintain a certain level of professionalism and decorum substantially increases the chances of this happening.
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Re: The 1 year anniversary of Daniel Rogov's passing

by Ian Sutton » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:02 pm

Rogov was a great supporter of people having opinions and I'm not sure I could ever remember him wishing to silence even a radical opinion. That said, a confident and eloquent leader (and he was an eloquent leader) can sometimes unwittingly hold others back from finding their own voice, so in that context I understand the point.

If others find that one year on, they have more confidence and a year's more wisdom to fuel that confidence, then that's a good thing (whether because or despite - such detail is less important when the end result is positive).

I miss the man, even not having met him. A very interesting person to talk with, even over something as remote as the internet. I've found myself posting less, but that's no reflection on the people here, nor how they've taken the forum forwards. The forum is indeed moving forwards and I think one year on there's enough to say that it will flourish. It won't be the forum it was, but then moving forwards is not about recreating the past, but developing something new and refreshing.

So bravo to all for carrying the forum through an awfully dificult time, and for emerging with something that has merit on it's own terms.

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Re: The 1 year anniversary of Daniel Rogov's passing

by Elchonon Hellinger » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:55 am

Hi,
I have been seriously drinking wine maybe only 2 years, before that and especially when I lived in Israel, "GOOD wine" was a bottle of yatir or castel or makhpela at 100 shkalim (25$)

Good wine was every where in Israel especially since I lived (kind of still do) in judea, samaria and jerusalem, I recall when harerei kedem (now ben porat) was maybe 75 shkalim (17$) and my friend from yitzhar told me it was great wine... in fact I am so old I recall when rechilim where Tura is, was founded.

So the commercial aspect of the wines and the per winery / label focus did not develop much later, I ran in to Rogov's reiews, book and scores maybe 2-3 years ago when I was in the US full time for business.

PC off, rogov did a lot maybe the most for Israel wines, but the sentiment is that he was more critical of wines over the green line, while to me these wines are my heart and soul, my blood... Regardless, I respect Rogov immensely, I regret I did not join the board earlier.
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Re: The 1 year anniversary of Daniel Rogov's passing

by Joel D Parker » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:26 am

I don't know if this is the appropriate place to say this, but as sad as it is for those of us who knew Rogov personally that he isn't with us, it has really been a bummer for the Israeli wine industry as well.

In this past week's Ha'aretz article on Rosh Hashanna wines http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/for ... m-1.464698 there are a number of interesting points one can get without getting around the paywall.

First, the article is written by Anshel Pfeffer, who is normally a political commentator and while perhaps a wine-lover, does not have the same charisma as Rogov did, nor does he have anywhere near the breadth of experience. So, in short, Ha'aretz still doesn't have a 'wine guy'.

That leads to the second point, which is echoed in the first lines of the article, that Israeli wine is in a major slump right now. Without all the hype and exposure Rogov created, there is simply a vacuum in the marketing departments of most wineries. Not even Mark Squires with his prime position in Robert Parker's enterprise could have impacted the world of Israeli wine as much as Rogov did. Rogov's scores, as debatable as they were, and his strong opinions, as clumsy as they might have been at times, were important for the Israeli wine industry.

There might be other factors in the Israeli wine slump, such as generally unease in the Israeli public at this time in history, and certainly we can even blame Rogov for over-hyping a good many wineries, while trying to convince all of us that 100NIS a bottle for mediocre wine was okay. But in any case, the survival of the fittest race has gotten off to an early start, and Rogov left us all too soon, in my opinion.

Ultimately, it will probably be good for the Israeli wine industry, but still the hype-machine enabled a good many, like Carmel, for instance, to get off the ground and get their act together in order to pass through the next hurdle. I would argue such wineries would not have been in that position if not, at least in part, for the role played by Rogov and his Ha'aretz column.

Aside from praising Rogov, I do hope that the Israeli wine industry can steer itself towards a place that is slightly beyond where the average Israeli palate is today. Unfortunately, I fear that in the short term, instead of people becoming more sophisticated, they will actually become less sophisticated and rely even more on the incredibly poor advise of most wine-shop salespeople, as well as friends and family members who tend to go for high-alcohol, overly ripe, overly-oaked, red, blockbusters. And unfortunately, many Israeli wineries still gain a lot of prestige within the country from the mere fact that they have the chutzpa to sell their crap for 200NIS.

Keep it real, keep it civil, and keep it focused on the main thing, wine. Friends, that's Rogov's most important legacy.

Best,

joel
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Re: The 1 year anniversary of Daniel Rogov's passing

by Pinchas L » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:52 am

Joel D Parker wrote:Unfortunately, I fear that in the short term, instead of people becoming more sophisticated, they will actually become less sophisticated and rely even more on the incredibly poor advise of most wine-shop salespeople, as well as friends and family members who tend to go for high-alcohol, overly ripe, overly-oaked, red, blockbusters.


Yes, Joel, but your description of high-alcohol, overly ripe, overly oaked, red blockbusters, fits Yarden's style quite acurately, yet Rogov set them as the benchmark for Israeli wines. So its not only the wine-shop salespeople that are pushing that "unsophisticated" style.

As for the slump in the Israeli wine industry, that's a big topic deserving of a thread all its own. I can think of many contributing factors but most important among them in my opinion is that the wineries, for the most part, are not following any coherent business plan for the development of their brand, their portfolio and their marketing.

Its great hearing from you.

Best,
-> Pinchas
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Re: The 1 year anniversary of Daniel Rogov's passing

by Robin Garr » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:38 am

I miss Rogov. That pretty much says it all.

Now, a question for you folks, and there is no rush to answer: Rogov's obituary will always remain on the forum in his memory. But a year having passed, should we now release it from its permanent position at the top of the forum? Or leave it in that primary position as long as the forum exists? I have no vested interest either way.
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Re: The 1 year anniversary of Daniel Rogov's passing

by Mike BG » Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:01 am

Robin Garr wrote:I miss Rogov. That pretty much says it all.

Now, a question for you folks, and there is no rush to answer: Rogov's obituary will always remain on the forum in his memory. But a year having passed, should we now release it from its permanent position at the top of the forum? Or leave it in that primary position as long as the forum exists? I have no vested interest either way.

I think many of us (myself certainly) owe him a deep debt of gratitude for introducing them to the world of high quality wines. We would still be drinking anything the shopkeepers threw at us for outrageous prices without him. So my vote goes for leaving it 'sticky' at the top of the forum.
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Re: The 1 year anniversary of Daniel Rogov's passing

by YoelA » Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:12 pm

I agree that it should remain posted at the top.
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Re: The 1 year anniversary of Daniel Rogov's passing

by David Raccah » Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:51 pm

Indeed - let us not need a vote for this. It should stay there until the time that this forum is no more...
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Re: The 1 year anniversary of Daniel Rogov's passing

by Gabriel Geller » Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:28 pm

Yep, please keep it there Robin. And thank you so much for your hospitality on this forum :) now that after the passing of the resident curmudgeon, a bunch of others are proudly speaking out :mrgreen: ...
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Re: The 1 year anniversary of Daniel Rogov's passing

by Robin Garr » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:09 pm

Okay, excellent! Hearing no objections, I will gladly leave it in its place of honor. To be honest, that's my preference, but I wanted to give you folks the respect of inviting you to make the decision. Thanks!
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Elie Poltorak

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Re: The 1 year anniversary of Daniel Rogov's passing

by Elie Poltorak » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:21 am

I figured I should reflect a bit before posting here...
I can't say my wine drinking was much influenced by Rogov, as I found early on that my tastes strongly differed from his so I didn't place much stock in his scores and TNs, but I learned much of what I know about wine from him. While I've loved great wine for as long as I can remember (probably before I learned to chew solids :lol:), Rogov introduced me to the wider world of wine knowledge and wine culture--learning about varietals, styles, techniques, etc. For that I am forever indebted to him.
As for the forum, whereas before it was mostly a classroom setting, with the professor lecturing, opening the floor to student questions, and sharing his far superior knowledge, post Rogov the forum has become a much more intimate club, where a few friends schmooze about their shared passion and compare notes. I don't know that anyone was more intimidated before or suddenly found their voice--Rogov was always very forthcoming and encouraged everyone to speak their minds--but the setting has definitely changed, encouraging us all to share in a more intimate, informal manner.

I hate to go off on a tangent on this thread, but it irks me to no end when people refer to big jammy wines as "unsophisticated." The wine world is becoming fashion-driven. Parker has been replaced by Ann Wintour. A few short years ago, big jammy wines were all the rage; today they're unacceptable in polite company. It's like wide ties and skinny ties with the fashion cycling back and forth. Frankly, it's ridiculous. Just like a great Saville Row suit never goes out of style, and a truly dapper dresser can wear the same classic ties (of moderate width) year after year, decade after decade, without chasing the vagaries of fashion, so too a great wine is a great wine, and I don't give damn whether it's au currant. I love good big jammy wines (although I dislike over-ripe, sweet, oak bombs) and I love good restrained elegant wines (although I dislike lifeless, thin, bland wines)--and I'm not ashamed of either. My drinking choice on any particular day may be influenced by the weather, what I'm eating, etc. Yarden happens to be the most consistent producer of amazing big jammy wines. If you don't like them, fine, but don't think that makes you more "sophisticated."
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Re: The 1 year anniversary of Daniel Rogov's passing

by Ian Sutton » Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:22 pm

Elie
That's a good summary of the fashionising of wine styles and what at times seems like trench-warfare between followers of one style or another. I have a similar view in that there will be days when a big bruiser of a red is what's sought. On other days a nice fat butter-ball of a chardonnay. The next a seductively sweet yet piercingly acidic riesling, and another still a subtle unambitious wine that is true to it's region and delivers humble yet reassuringly rewarding enjoyment. It's a good position to enjoy a variety of styles (albeit making it all too easy to buy more wine :oops: ). There are days I envy those that like wines from a tighter range of styles - life has simpler choices!

There were some wines in the 'bigger is better and biggest is best' camp, where there never was a balance to my tastes. My palate clearly differs from those that laud them. My palate never did go that far across the spectrum, but even so, I'm definitely moving towards subtlety & understatement. That's not saying it's better (other than to my tastes). Indeed it's a tough claim to say a £15 Ghemme wine is better than a £40 Barolo, yet I'm really warming to the leaner styled wines of the former.
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Re: The 1 year anniversary of Daniel Rogov's passing

by Jonathan K » Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:14 pm

I have avoided this thread so far, but am going to go ahead and offer my opinions of what has been presented.

1. Clearly, I am in the minority, but I find the continued presence of the obit thread pinned to the top of the forum creepy. I am all for honoring Rogov- I just wish it could be replaced with something else.
2. I appreciate the attempt to find a positive spin on the year since we lost Rogov, but I just don't see the positives. People are more emboldened to express their opinions? Maybe- but I thought Rogov encouraged other opinions even if he forcefully disagreed. A good example- Israeli Pinot Noir. For some reason he liked it and gots lots of contradicting feedback from the board.
3. I still enjoy the forum, but it is kind of languishing and lacks a galvanizing force. Now maybe that force doesn't exist and it is better as it is than with the wrong person at the helm.
4. Fashion sense and wine? Almost all of Bordeaux changed their practices to suit Robert Parker's palate. Sometimes I like that style, sometimes I don't. We're stuck with it for a long time though. That's reality. Bottom line always is drink what you like. Life's too short.
5. It is awfully close to Yom Kippur, and if anybody is offended by this or anything else I have posted this year, it was never my intent to offend and I profoundly apologize.

L'chaim,

Jonathan
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Re: The 1 year anniversary of Daniel Rogov's passing

by Craig Winchell » Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:29 pm

Jonathan, why would anyone be offended at your expressing your opinions? We're all big boys and girls here, adults capable of dealing with it. Nothing wrong with a dissenting opinion. Personally, I'm probably sharing your viewpoint, though I don't too much care one way or the other. Perhaps just a notation saying that the forum is in memory of Rogov, on the page of this forum, would be more apprpriate. The only reason I would go that route is that the obit thread hasn't had anything new added since early April, so it's serving no purpose as a thread, unless people are actively viewing it, which I personally am not. I'm not creeped out like you are, but threads which are not active should retire gracefully, as all of the others seem to do, and appear again when someone has something to add.

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