Founded by the late Daniel Rogov, focusing primarily on wines that are either kosher or Israeli.
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Re: Dalton is the very best QPR wine maker in Israel

by Yossie Horwitz » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:26 pm

Ping me next time you are in NYC and we can enjoy one together...
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Re: Dalton is the very best QPR wine maker in Israel

by Steven B » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:34 pm

Wine Enthusiast rated Recanati's 2010 Shiraz (the mevushal version no less) as one of the 100 best buys of 2012. They rated it a 90 and it was the only Israeli wine to make it in. Certainly helps Recanati make their case for best QPR in the $10-$15 range.

Here's the link
http://www.winemag.com/Wine%20Enthusiast%20Magazine's%20Top%20100%20Best%20Buys%20for%202012.pdf
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Re: Dalton is the very best QPR wine maker in Israel

by Harry J » Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:27 pm

bsd
not being familiar with the applicable vocabulary,i wonder if one would classify the 2010 recanati shiraz as new world/fruit foward a sopposed to the say the dalton 09 which is deeply extracted and spicy.h
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Re: Dalton is the very best QPR wine maker in Israel

by Gabriel Geller » Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:13 pm

Harry J wrote:bsd
not being familiar with the applicable vocabulary,i wonder if one would classify the 2010 recanati shiraz as new world/fruit foward a sopposed to the say the dalton 09 which is deeply extracted and spicy.h

Harry, while your description of the above-mentioned wines is very much summarized, it is quite accurate. Both the wines are new world in style yet the Recanati is a rather simple pleasant wine with plenty of bright fruit and easy-drinking whereas the Dalton is much more complex and concentrated making it IMHO a far more interesting wine - and thereby QPR option - for the sophisticated wine-snob/nut that I am...
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Re: Dalton is the very best QPR wine maker in Israel

by Sam M » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:08 am

As an "experienced" consumer, Gabriel and yehoshua got it right. It's all about how much wine I can get for the price. I won't buy wine I don't like at any price , like the Canaan. But I'm crazy about the petite syrah at below 20.00 , and the alma. The Psagot edom is my new favorite when I can buy it around 25.00.

I get Adam and Craig's points . Professionally speaking, age ability and varietal authenticity must be critical in assessing a wines quality. But in my purchase decisions, A. Age ability only comes into play for me for higher end wines. I will only buy a wine over 50.00 if it has age ability . And B. I never ask myself , is this a true cab?, Syrah ? Etc. All I need to know is that I enjoy this wine.

David, it's probably true that most consumers have no clue. But how can those consumers assess a qpr, if they've only tasted 10.00 wines?

Humbly
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Re: Dalton is the very best QPR wine maker in Israel

by Elie Poltorak » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:06 am

Andrew Breskin wrote:The last Dalton I had was a Meron Vyd Merlot that tasted like strawberry jelly and I poured it down the drain. Turns out that wine got scored in the low 70s by Wine Spectator. I should really find a bottle of their famous Viognier and try the other entry level wines.


The Dalton Meron merlot is a funny wine, in that it provoked extreme reactions: everyone either loved it or hated it. I think it's one of the best merlots (maybe the best) ever from Israel. I wasn't the only one who thought so, but many disagreed and thought it undrinkable. I recall a rather lengthy thread debating this wine a couple of years ago.

Hurry up and try the viognier as it's already fading. It's still quite good but much more honeyed and losing complexity.
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Re: Dalton is the very best QPR wine maker in Israel

by Elie Poltorak » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:17 am

Gabriel Geller wrote:
Harry J wrote:bsd
not being familiar with the applicable vocabulary,i wonder if one would classify the 2010 recanati shiraz as new world/fruit foward a sopposed to the say the dalton 09 which is deeply extracted and spicy.h

Harry, while your description of the above-mentioned wines is very much summarized, it is quite accurate. Both the wines are new world in style yet the Recanati is a rather simple pleasant wine with plenty of bright fruit and easy-drinking whereas the Dalton is much more complex and concentrated making it IMHO a far more interesting wine - and thereby QPR option - for the sophisticated wine-snob/nut that I am...


The Dalton Shiraz is definitely a step up from the Recanati and both are fabulous QPR buys, but even the Dalton is still on the simpler side--a very fine table wine but not top-tier something to write home about. In other words, if money weren't an object, it's not a wine I'd come back to as there are better shiraz in a similar style, albeit higher price (Bravdo, Barkan Superior) Personally, I'm more impressed with a reasonable price for a truly great wine that I would go back to even if money were no object--such as the much lamented Dalton Viognier and Alma SMV, the Yiron, the Yarden CS and BdB, and the Ella Valley Cabernet Franc--to name a few examples (or from outside Israel, the Peraj Petita and Vignobles David Reserve).
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Re: Dalton is the very best QPR wine maker in Israel

by Elie Poltorak » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:22 am

Adam M wrote:Hi Michael - Don't disagree with you AT ALL. If you will notice, not once did I ask that this discuss cease. Even though I have no interest in this topic whatsoever, I fully respect the rights that people have to respectfully discuss what they view as interesting and discussion-worthy onthe topic of kosher or israeli wine. Now, it is WAY off the topic of the post, which I would submit is a little out of line with "discussion forum" norms. But I didn't even complain about that.

I simply lobbed in a gentle (and very friendly) tease.

I hope this clarification has soothed your concerns.....


Adam:
I certainly don't mind the tease at all. As far as going off topic, you are of course correct, but discussion naturally flows in various directions. I didn't just post this out of the blue--rather it grew out of an off-hand remark by David which spurred this conversation. But since it's gotten so far off-topic, I'll move it to the new thread Craig started.

Michael:
Thanks for the encouragement.

Craig:
I will respond to your last post in your new thread when I get a chance.

Pinchas:
I did try my best to translate and simplify, but it's difficult to discuss any technical issue without using jargon. If you want me to clarify something in particular I'd be happy to oblige.
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Re: Dalton is the very best QPR wine maker in Israel

by Elie Poltorak » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:29 am

Mike_F wrote:
Elie Poltorak wrote:Another difference between hechsherim is whether they allow reias aku"m--for a non-Jew to see the wine prior to bottling. According to Kabbala, wine seen by a non-Jew may not be used for sacramental purposes (kidush, havdala, bircat hamazon, etc.). As far as I know, the major kashrus organizations in the U.S. do not follow this stringency, although the mashgichim in specific locations may require it. For instance, although OU doesn't require it, Capcanes and Elvi are made without being seen by non-Jews due to requirements by the local (Chabad) mashgichim. Also, Israeli wine with a reliable hechsher is almost always made without reias aku"m (since of course it's much easier there on a practical level).


If the above is indeed accurate, then words fail me. And you guys wonder why kosher wines have such a hard time reaching a wider audience...


Mike_F:
I don't understand your post at all. Why would the production process impact the wines' acceptance to a wider audience?
As it happens, Jorgen of Capcanes is very proud of the special procedures they implemented (including improvising equipment that conceals the wine) in order to render their wines fit for kiddush for Chassidim and Sefardim. As a Catholic, he has an appreciation for the sacramental function of wine and understands the requirements that can go with that.
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Re: Dalton is the very best QPR wine maker in Israel

by Elie Poltorak » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:36 am

Craig Winchell wrote:Mike_F:

It is certainly true that it is a chumra from the Zohar, specifically for the wine in the glass at kiddush, etc. But like everything, people accepted and enlarged it until now, some consumers only want wine from unopened cases, because the wine in the sealed bottle may have been seen by nonJews through the glass (I know, because people requested it of me, despite the fact that the wine was bottled using nonJews in non-contact positions who could certainly have seen the wine). And my own Rav, when he was the poseik for the kof-K, would have required me to have everything out of sight of nonJews, including the crush pad (not easy when the growers are delivering their grapes to the winery in trucks that sit high). He later told me that if he had known how few actually used the chumrah, he never would have required it- mostly Sephardim, and few of those. It did spawn a nice little industry making bottle snoods for Chabadniks, however (at least, those are the only tables at which I have seen them).

I have no knowledge of any wineries outside of California in that regard.


Craig:
This chumra is held by many Sefardim and all Chassidim. The reason you may have only seen it at Chabad is because other, more cloistered chassidim may not have been as exposed to wine culture as Chabad, but that is rapidly changing. Williamsburg and Boro Park wine shops now sell a wide variety of high-end wines, and chassidim from across the spectrum are buying them. As such, this chumra is important to them so that they can use the wines for kidush, etc. Yehoshua: Am I wrong here?
As far as unopened cases, that's most likely just ignorance--a non-Jew can touch, carry, own, etc. sealed bottles, the chumra of concealing the wine from non-jews only applies to open (or if you want to be more mehader, unsealed) containers. And as you point out, any commercial wine will almost certainly have been seen by non-jews after bottling.
(Rabbi Blumenkrantz brings down from one Admu"r who was makpid that his wine shouldn't be seen even when it's sealed but that's a rebbeshe chumra and I never heard of anyone adopting it.)
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Re: Dalton is the very best QPR wine maker in Israel

by Harry J » Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:22 am

Being Elie just mentioned Williamsburg (Brooklyn)-happened to notice an interestingly designed store there last nite called the Cave where the store is kind of designed to give the feeling of a wine cellar.h
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Re: Dalton is the very best QPR wine maker in Israel

by Craig Winchell » Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:22 am

Elie:

Not all Chassidim, or rather, it is not an institutionalized norm in some dynasties (according to my rav, who many for me that he had mistakenly thought held by the chumra), and is certainly not a norm among many (most?) Chassidic individuals. That is one of the reasons Rav Belsky apologized to me for having required that stringency. It is worth noting that the stringency was one of the reasons I went with the OU instead of the Kof-K. OF course, later Rav Belsky became one of 2 major poskim for the OU. He became my rav when he was still with the Kof-K.
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Re: Dalton is the very best QPR wine maker in Israel

by David Raccah » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:26 am

Thanks for moving the side thread offline :D

Now - I wanted to get a feel - if I can - what defines P to you all (within the QPR)? Is 100 dollars OK? QPR means to me 20 bucks. Quite literally QPR means Quality to Price Ratio, which to me also means nothing more than a moving line chart of price to quality. So if all the kosher wine out there were scored/rated/qualified/recommended or not, then where on the scale/chart would you say defines a QPR wine - or are we all talk by ourselves?

There are two thoughts there:

1) A Best Buy rating - which for most os 25 dollars or less (both WE and WS use that number)
2) Simply a second score like Pinchas and other use to define the value of the wine given its score/rating

The second makes more sense for the term - QPR - meaning even if I paid 50 dollars for the wine - if it is a Katzrin and the bottle was lovely - like most Katzrin red are - then I got a steal - HIGH QPR (obvious stupid example - I know).

I guess what I am asking is there are people on this thread calling 35 dollar wines a QPR wine - is that what everyone thinks? Because the wine is very good - the price was worth it? Or were people using QPR as more of a price level and then if the wine is good at 25 bucks - then yeah - it has a high QPR?

Personally, as much as I like Dalton - most of their wines fall above my QPR line of 20 to 25 bucks. The Recanati do not. The Dalton Zin and PS can be found in that range when on sale.

How do you understand the term QPR here in this thread? Also, are sales part of the QPR decision? Fair enough that a wine is on sale - but does that mean that its QPR went up because a store is dumping it or needs to make room?
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Re: Dalton is the very best QPR wine maker in Israel

by Elie Poltorak » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:31 am

David Raccah wrote:Thanks for moving the side thread offline :D

Now - I wanted to get a feel - if I can - what defines P to you all (within the QPR)? Is 100 dollars OK? QPR means to me 20 bucks. Quite literally QPR means Quality to Price Ratio, which to me also means nothing more than a moving line chart of price to quality. So if all the kosher wine out there were scored/rated/qualified/recommended or not, then where on the scale/chart would you say defines a QPR wine - or are we all talk by ourselves?

There are two thoughts there:

1) A Best Buy rating - which for most os 25 dollars or less (both WE and WS use that number)
2) Simply a second score like Pinchas and other use to define the value of the wine given its score/rating

The second makes more sense for the term - QPR - meaning even if I paid 50 dollars for the wine - if it is a Katzrin and the bottle was lovely - like most Katzrin red are - then I got a steal - HIGH QPR (obvious stupid example - I know).

I guess what I am asking is there are people on this thread calling 35 dollar wines a QPR wine - is that what everyone thinks? Because the wine is very good - the price was worth it? Or were people using QPR as more of a price level and then if the wine is good at 25 bucks - then yeah - it has a high QPR?

Personally, as much as I like Dalton - most of their wines fall above my QPR line of 20 to 25 bucks. The Recanati do not. The Dalton Zin and PS can be found in that range when on sale.

How do you understand the term QPR here in this thread? Also, are sales part of the QPR decision? Fair enough that a wine is on sale - but does that mean that its QPR went up because a store is dumping it or needs to make room?
David


I go with number 2. Best buys are something else, but QPR is relative rather than absolute. It boils down to is the wine priced higher or lower than comparable wines? At some point (say over $100) it becomes meaningless as there's little to compare against, but a $50 wine can definitely have great QPR. Case in point: Yarden El Rom.
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Re: Dalton is the very best QPR wine maker in Israel

by Craig Winchell » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:14 pm

Now - I wanted to get a feel - if I can - what defines P to you all (within the QPR)? Is 100 dollars OK? QPR means to me 20 bucks. Quite literally QPR means Quality to Price Ratio, which to me also means nothing more than a moving line chart of price to quality. So if all the kosher wine out there were scored/rated/qualified/recommended or not, then where on the scale/chart would you say defines a QPR wine - or are we all talk by ourselves?


I've never before heard of a QPR wine, just high QPR wines and low QPR wines. It's just a measure of value. Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes you get more than you paid for, and sometimes you get less. To me, a high QPR wine can be had at any price, if in my estimation, I get more for my money than I have in much of my history for a wine of that type and a price tag of that amount. Obviously, it is a very personal measure, because each person has a different history, and may have a different idea of quality, either slightly different or to a major extent. Over time, too, prices often increase, so late bloomers to the wine world may have an inflated history of prices, and therefore a decreased view of QPR relative to old timers.

I have no idea where the QPR "sweet spot" is for kosher wines, as I don't buy them (getting them as I do from production), but I would guestimate it is higher than the general market only because kosher wine seems to be inflated relative to the general market (though there may be notable exceptions). Tom Hill, in the main forum, thought Shirah's Power was in the ball park for wines of its type in the general market. That would tend to increase my perception of its QPR relative to many other kosher wines, which my history tells me are selling at a premium relative to the general market... even though the wine is selling in the $60+ range.
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Re: Dalton is the very best QPR wine maker in Israel

by David Raccah » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:48 am

My take on this thread - and some notes....

http://kosherwinemusings.com/2012/10/22 ... r-to-find/
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Re: Dalton is the very best QPR wine maker in Israel

by Elie Poltorak » Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:59 am

David Raccah wrote:My take on this thread - and some notes....

http://kosherwinemusings.com/2012/10/22 ... r-to-find/


David:

Great post! May I suggest that you copy at least the portions directly relating to this thread's discussion over here to facilitate further discussion?

After reading your post, I'm still not quite clear as to your criteria for the QPR label. Will it be reserved for lower priced wines in the absolute sense (i.e., never awarded to wines above a certain threshold no matter the quality)? Will the quality you expect at a certain price vary by the varietal, region, style, etc.? I think your readers will benefit from a more definite explanation so we know what the label really tells us.

BTW (a bit off topic here), re the '07 Yarden Pinot, as you point out, its pinot origin has finally come through as it has very much mellowed with age. I've begun working through my stock and am enjoying it immensely. IMHO, I would no longer pair it with sharp cheeses, but a milder hard cheese makes sense as does roast beef--as long as its not heavily spiced--but best of all, it pairs wonderfully with tuna, whether in the form of a steak, shashimi, or tuna tartare. Now pray tell me, how the heck do you pair wine with CHICKEN SOUP? :lol:
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Re: Dalton is the very best QPR wine maker in Israel

by David Raccah » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:24 pm

I will be using QPR - as you all do, like Craig stated - qulaity wine for the price paid, whether that is 50 bucks or 18 bucks. A A+ wine for 50 bucks - no brainer QPR. A 50 dollar wine for a B+ to A- not a QPR. A B+ to A- for 18 bucks again a no brainer QPR. Yeah it is still subjective - but so is the score and wine in general.

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Re: Dalton is the very best QPR wine maker in Israel

by Elie Poltorak » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:25 pm

David Raccah wrote:I will be using QPR - as you all do, like Craig stated - qulaity wine for the price paid, whether that is 50 bucks or 18 bucks. A A+ wine for 50 bucks - no brainer QPR. A 50 dollar wine for a B+ to A- not a QPR. A B+ to A- for 18 bucks again a no brainer QPR. Yeah it is still subjective - but so is the score and wine in general.

David


OK you've answered my first question but not my second. I assume that you rate wines based on their peer group. In other words, you'll rate a sauvignon blanc compared to other sauvignon blancs out there. You would expect an A- sauvignon blanc to cost far less than an A- cabernet sauvignon, correct? By extension, an A- cabernet at $25 is definitely a bargain but a comparably rated sauvignon blanc at that price is rather expensive. Shouldn't a QPR rating take that into account?
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Re: Dalton is the very best QPR wine maker in Israel

by David Raccah » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:35 pm

Not sure I understand. In the end a wine rating has ZERO to do with price and a QPR rating is ALL ABOUT price. So, irrelevant to the varietal or the maker, an A- wine should be around 30 bucks or less. So a Benyo Pinot at 40 or so bucks is a great wine - but not a QPR winner - sorry, friend or not. I still buy the wine, but it is a discussion of getting a great wine for a steal. QPR defines that.

Your assumption is that a SB is cheaper in cost than a CS - which to me is incorrect. To me there are price ranges and both I and Pinchas should state those more openly - and I agree that I should do that.

Anything less than 25 bucks meets the B+ to A- range. A- straight up is 25 to 35. A- to A is 35 to 45 and A is anything to 60 or so. A+ is great so who cares. Yes these prices are arbitrary, but they are values that we all use - one way or the other. I know many of you scoff at 25 dollar wines and some of you never buy above that unless it is an occasion. Would love to get a price/score distribution from folks - maybe we should setup a poll for the first two slots?

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Re: Dalton is the very best QPR wine maker in Israel

by Gabriel Geller » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:51 pm

David Raccah wrote:Not sure I understand. In the end a wine rating has ZERO to do with price and a QPR rating is ALL ABOUT price. So, irrelevant to the varietal or the maker, an A- wine should be around 30 bucks or less. So a Benyo Pinot at 40 or so bucks is a great wine - but not a QPR winner - sorry, friend or not. I still buy the wine, but it is a discussion of getting a great wine for a steal. QPR defines that.

Dave, Let's picture just something crazy (may be not so crazy..?) for the sake of the thread: Imagine that one day Benyo will make a truly amazing Burgundy style Pinot that Parker would blind taste side by side with a Romanée-Conti. Both would get a 98-100 or Benyo's would score higher than the Conti. Benyo's still cost 40 bucks and the Conti 20,000 bucks. Wouldn't the Four Gates be an unbelievable QPR?
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Re: Dalton is the very best QPR wine maker in Israel

by Elie Poltorak » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:53 pm

David Raccah wrote:Not sure I understand. In the end a wine rating has ZERO to do with price and a QPR rating is ALL ABOUT price. So, irrelevant to the varietal or the maker, an A- wine should be around 30 bucks or less. So a Benyo Pinot at 40 or so bucks is a great wine - but not a QPR winner - sorry, friend or not. I still buy the wine, but it is a discussion of getting a great wine for a steal. QPR defines that.

Your assumption is that a SB is cheaper in cost than a CS - which to me is incorrect. To me there are price ranges and both I and Pinchas should state those more openly - and I agree that I should do that.

Anything less than 25 bucks meets the B+ to A- range. A- straight up is 25 to 35. A- to A is 35 to 45 and A is anything to 60 or so. A+ is great so who cares. Yes these prices are arbitrary, but they are values that we all use - one way or the other. I know many of you scoff at 25 dollar wines and some of you never buy above that unless it is an occasion. Would love to get a price/score distribution from folks - maybe we should setup a poll for the first two slots?

David


Fair enough. Now I know what your QPR is based on. In fact, now that you've set static price ranges for the cost/rating ratio, the QPR tag isn't even necessary, as it's merely a function of your score and the bottle's price. (I'm not discouraging you from using it--clearly it's useful for a blog--just pointing out that it doesn't add any additional info.)

I'm not sure how Pinchas scores his stars, but I can tell you that I definitely do NOT follow your system. In fact, I'm very surprised to see you challenge the assumption that a young fresh SB should cost significantly less than a comparably rated CS--particularly a CS styled for long-term cellaring. There are a whole host of reasons for this, including cost of production (cooperage, cellaring, more expensive grapes to those purchasing rather than growingetc.), cost of capital due to longer time from harvest to release, perceived value, etc. For instance, Covenant makes a great SB as well as a great CS. Both rate around A- to A (although the SB is more of an A- and the CS can reach A in some vintages). The CS costs about 5 times as much.

When I rate QPR using Pinchas's three star system, I take into account the varietal, region, and style--just as I do when scoring the wine--and the price similar wines go for. After all, comparing a SB with a CS is meaningless. So when assessing a SB, I'd use $20 as my midpoint, whereas for a long-cellaring CS it would be around $40 or $50.
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Re: Dalton is the very best QPR wine maker in Israel

by Elie Poltorak » Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:02 am

David:
Your post inspired me to uncork a bottle of '07 Yarden PN last night with some artisinal hard goat cheese from the Galil. At first, there was a distinctly vinegary odor, that was very off-putting. After about 1/2 hour, it blew off and the pinot came through loud and clear. Orange rim on this wine. Still quite fruity and rather subdued spice--the remnant of the heavy spice this wine started off with. Paired deliciously with the cheese. Nevertheless, I'd say this wine is definitely in drink-up mode.
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