Founded by the late Daniel Rogov, focusing primarily on wines that are either kosher or Israeli.
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Shawn Johnson

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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

by Shawn Johnson » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:32 am

Borgo Reale Brunello di Montalcino
Borgo Reale Maturo
Dalton Safsufa Cabernet Sauvignon
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Elie Poltorak

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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

by Elie Poltorak » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:44 pm

Yakov F wrote:
Sorry Yossie but now you're way off mark. Mevushal is not in ANY sense a stringency


Elie,

I am very sorry to point out once again that you are uninformed on the halachic facts. You have misstated before in other threads as well. Current kashrut supervision practices are a reflection of just that - current halachic practices. And again - since you write with great generalization, so do I.

I can start quoting the most prominent halachic sources over the centuries as well as the major leading contemporary sources but again, this is not the forum for halachic discussions on these issues.

I do however highly recommend that you study them before posting in the future.


Yakov


Yakov:

You make a habit of criticizing what I write without bothering to "put your money where your mouth is" and point out where I'm wrong. That is unfair. Either pick up the gauntlet and debate the issues or stay silent. Otherwise, your "recommendations" are unhelpful and contribute nothing to the discussion.

Furthermore, your post makes no sense. I wrote that there is no such stringency ("chumra") as drinking only mevushal wine. To the contrary, there is a chumra to only use NON-mevushal wine for kos shel brocho (kiddush, havdala, birkat hamazon, etc.) So what exactly are you taking issue with??? Or is your reading comprehension as poor as your grasp of halacha?

If you had bothered reading my post before flaming, you'd read that the reason almost no US restaurants allow non-mevushal wine is purely practical--the expense and hassle of ensuring no non-shomer Shabbos/non-Jewish waiters/bussboys accidentally move glasses containing wine. No stringencies or "halachic practices" involved!
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Gabriel Geller

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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

by Gabriel Geller » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:17 pm

This is also why halachic discussions should be avoided on this forum. Guys, I'm not going to pretend that I represent other forumites' opinions (though I do have a strong feeling that many will agree with this) but I think that you should either keep it civil or stop it.

Thanks,

GG
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Elie Poltorak

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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

by Elie Poltorak » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:51 pm

Gabriel Geller wrote:This is also why halachic discussions should be avoided on this forum. Guys, I'm not going to pretend that I represent other forumites' opinions (though I do have a strong feeling that many will agree with this) but I think that you should either keep it civil or stop it.

Thanks,

GG


I don't see why we can't discuss any topic in a civil manner--halachic or otherwise. When we discuss kosher wines, there's bound to be some halachic issues involved. We've had spirited discussions about these issues in the past without getting personal. But for some reason Yakov feels the need to attack me every time without actually challenging what I'm saying and that really ticks me off. There's nothing wrong with sharp disagreements--we've had quite a few without getting personal. In fact, I was just engaged in an interesting argument with Yossie about mevushal wine--both the quality and kashrut aspects. In any event, whoever isn't interested in a particular topic is free to skip those posts. But if someone does comment, they should say something substantive rather than just attacking the poster.
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Elchonon Hellinger

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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

by Elchonon Hellinger » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:34 am

Elie Poltorak wrote:
Gabriel Geller wrote:This is also why halachic discussions should be avoided on this forum. Guys, I'm not going to pretend that I represent other forumites' opinions (though I do have a strong feeling that many will agree with this) but I think that you should either keep it civil or stop it.

Thanks,

GG


I don't see why we can't discuss any topic in a civil manner--halachic or otherwise. When we discuss kosher wines, there's bound to be some halachic issues involved. We've had spirited discussions about these issues in the past without getting personal. But for some reason Yakov feels the need to attack me every time without actually challenging what I'm saying and that really ticks me off. There's nothing wrong with sharp disagreements--we've had quite a few without getting personal. In fact, I was just engaged in an interesting argument with Yossie about mevushal wine--both the quality and kashrut aspects. In any event, whoever isn't interested in a particular topic is free to skip those posts. But if someone does comment, they should say something substantive rather than just attacking the poster.


Firstly, perhaps we can petition Robin gar for a forum to spar on halachik issues and invite some major hashgachot to weigh in

When im at a restaurant, with a non mevy bottle, my first thing is to inform wait staff do not touch bottle or wine, a pladced like harbor grill has a huge flow of wait staff they help any one just by seeing your body motion.. so you could have 5 different wait staff serving you, its pretty stressful lol

Maybe if restaurants didnt triple / quadruple wine prices regardless of mevu or not, people would buy. Why does a resturant want non mevu headache when VERY FEW order a bottle, mpolus what if you order a glass?

IMHO the only way non mevu will work, is a combo semmelier + mashgiach...

I like to drink wine when I eat, not get screwd
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Gabriel Geller

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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

by Gabriel Geller » Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:56 am

Elie Poltorak wrote:
Gabriel Geller wrote:This is also why halachic discussions should be avoided on this forum. Guys, I'm not going to pretend that I represent other forumites' opinions (though I do have a strong feeling that many will agree with this) but I think that you should either keep it civil or stop it.

Thanks,

GG


I don't see why we can't discuss any topic in a civil manner--halachic or otherwise. When we discuss kosher wines, there's bound to be some halachic issues involved. We've had spirited discussions about these issues in the past without getting personal. But for some reason Yakov feels the need to attack me every time without actually challenging what I'm saying and that really ticks me off. There's nothing wrong with sharp disagreements--we've had quite a few without getting personal. In fact, I was just engaged in an interesting argument with Yossie about mevushal wine--both the quality and kashrut aspects. In any event, whoever isn't interested in a particular topic is free to skip those posts. But if someone does comment, they should say something substantive rather than just attacking the poster.


Elie, mi amigo,

Whereas I do agree that these topics ARE relevant on this forum as you clearly pleaded your case here above, this forum seems usually to manage itself pretty well without needing a moderator to step in and calm things down as people refrain from personal attacks or any sort of reprehensible behavior.

But as both the shmitta and this mevushal threads show us, whenever we get to halachik debates things can go somewhat awry. Thus me being uncomfortable about those discussions taking place here. Now, as I can imagine the idea might have popped up in some of the folks' mind after reading these lines of mine, let me just state it clearly: I never thought and would never want to become this forum's moderator, no thanks. So again, as I said it already, I suggest that either we keep it civil or we don't do it at all.

Cheers! 8)

GG
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Craig Winchell

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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

by Craig Winchell » Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:41 am

Not weighing in on bishul, just weighing in on good natured argument. I'm of the opinion that friends can take a certain lattitude in kicking up an argument a notch. If you've ever called your friend an asshole or a douchebag to his face, you'll know it's often a sign of endearment rather than abuse. I think we here on the forum must be pretty good friends for hanging out together so long. We should be able to kick the rhetoric up a notch without it hurting feelings.
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Pinchas L

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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

by Pinchas L » Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:46 am

Elchonon Hellinger wrote:Firstly, perhaps we can petition Robin gar for a forum to spar on halachik issues and invite some major hashgachot to weigh in


Elchonon,

That forum exists and is named "Friends and Fun". That's the place for all the halachic themed discussions, and that is where Craig can see as many endearing insults as he wishes. The added benefit of using that forum, is that it can be viewed by members only.

Best,
-> Pinchas
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Isi M

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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

by Isi M » Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:04 pm

Ok, now I come in, because my limited knowledge tells me that Mevushal wines can be served by jews and non-jews as well.
Non-mevushal wines can be served by ANY jews.
It has nothing to do with shomer shabbat or not.
Only kosher wine production requires a shomer shabbat.
But a jew, even non-shomer-shabbat can open and serve you a non-mevushal wine.
I'm pretty sure about this but no 100%.
The only reason why some people would require a shomer shabbat only to touch or serve the bottle is because they have pushed the interpretation further, well over the religious limits.
I simply call this obsessional exaggeration.
This is my personal input. I hope I am not heating up too many people with this ....
Please contradict me if I'm wrong but this is the explanation received when I had this discussion with several Rabbi's in the past....
In fact I even feel it is very vexing for a jew when another jew tells him not to serve wine , wheter shomer or not.
Reminds me of the shabbes goy : can a shabbes goy be a non-shomer-jew ? No .....
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David Raccah

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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

by David Raccah » Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:23 pm

I could not help myself - I agree with Gabe, and again, it is my opinion, can we please table this subject and discuss the business side of the issue rather than the religious side of the issue. Everyone has their own opinion of what/which Jews can touch a bottle of opened non-mevushal wine and many can find support for it. The problem is, no matter your opinion you will be pissing someone off. So, I will again simply ask - can we table this and ask your LAOR (Local Area Orthodox Rabbi)? This is not the place for these subjects...

David
Checkout http://www.kosherwinemusings.com for my blogs on the world of kosher wines and follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/kosherwinemuse.
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Isi M

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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

by Isi M » Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:32 pm

David Raccah wrote:I could not help myself - I agree with Gabe, and again, it is my opinion, can we please table this subject and discuss the business side of the issue rather than the religious side of the issue. Everyone has their own opinion of what/which Jews can touch a bottle of opened non-mevushal wine and many can find support for it. The problem is, no matter your opinion you will be pissing someone off. So, I will again simply ask - can we table this and ask your LAOR (Local Area Orthodox Rabbi)? This is not the place for these subjects...

David


Why not ? If the subject is already launched ?
Otherwise lets setup a list of subjects that cant be discussed.
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Harry J

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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

by Harry J » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:07 pm

hi Isi this is why we miss you. and as elie mentioned being civil wasnt being violated. and as rogov would request in the olden days -the discussion was being kept to wine and when we discuss wine it can get interesting. discussing mevushal wine by people who drink wine is keeping with the topic especialy being that alot of the people who are within these discussions are highly educated people,alot of times i find it challenging following their breadth of knowledge. intersting indeed.h
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Adam M

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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

by Adam M » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:12 pm

I vote for not restricting the freedom to discuss these Halachic subjects (NB: with regarding to this, seems that Isi and I graduated from the same Yeshiva :lol: ), and I think it would not be so annoying to the others who disagree with me if the discussions were more - ok much more - civil. It almost seems like folks feel that they can not only turn off their politically correct filter, but they feel free to be out right rude and disrespectful. Ironically, I think this is due to the subject matter. I would submit for consideration that, when people engage in discussion around this topic, they imagine themselves in a Yeshiva accross the table from a fellow "learner" with a senior Rabbi (and God, of course) watching over you. This would include not succumbing to the temptation to respond in-kind to one's below the belt (or even seemingly outrageous, insensitive and idiotic) comments. With this approach, which is consistent with how we conduct nearly all other subject on this great forum, I think we can certainly tolerate and even welcome these sorts of discussions.

For the record, I have no interest in this subject. And so I have nothing to lose by not permitting detailed discussion of this topic. But there are many who care and live by this. And this forum has the potential of providing a very unique resource and outlet for this, and I would be proud to be an active participant and supporter of such a forum - IF IT CAN BE CONDUCTED RESPECTIVELY AND CIVILIY. If it can't, Robin will need to decide next steps....
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Harry J

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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

by Harry J » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:15 pm

bsd
last nite we we celebrated our daughters wedding and my son inlaws family graciously provided goose bay pinot noir and weinstock sonoma chardonay . saw PinchasL and would have appreciated his TN alas he left before it was served. thoguht i saw AdamM but dont know what he looks like so wasnt sure if it was him..
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David Raccah

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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

by David Raccah » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:16 pm

Mazel Tov Harry!!! - way to go....
Checkout http://www.kosherwinemusings.com for my blogs on the world of kosher wines and follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/kosherwinemuse.
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Pinchas L

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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

by Pinchas L » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:44 pm

David Raccah wrote:So, I will again simply ask - can we table this and ask your LAOR (Local Area Orthodox Rabbi)? This is not the place for these subjects...


David,

Not all readers are Orthodox Jews, some seek guidance from Conservative and Reform rabbis, and others derive their ethics from other places. Respect that.

Best,
-> Pinchas
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Robin Garr

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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

by Robin Garr » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:02 pm

Gentlefolks ... some of you asked me, as the forum owner, to stop by and see if moderation was needed here. At this point, I'm delighted to see this community behaving so well, even when the subject becomes one about which people have strong feelings and don't necessarily agree.

From my standpoint - and I believe from yours - there is really only one primary directive, and it works in the forum as it does in life: Be kind to one another and remember always what Rabbi Hillel taught while standing on one foot. The rest is commentary. :)

If I might suggest, but not dictate, a suggestion: If some of you find halachic discussions out of place in a wine conversation, then when such a discussion arises, consider separating it into its own topic, which those who wish may join, and those who prefer to avoid can stay away. Just a thought.

Thanks for making this forum such an exciting place. I am proud to be your host.

Robin
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