Founded by the late Daniel Rogov, focusing primarily on wines that are either kosher or Israeli.

Facebook versus the forum...

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David Raccah

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Facebook versus the forum...

by David Raccah » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:39 am

That cricket sound you hear - that is what happens when facebook threads of us freaks - go some 100 comments or more long. As much as I love my daily fix of FB caffeine, I think the forum needs a way to get less stuffy and more laid back - like we are on the forum. The medium itself is of course part of the problem - but what do you all think?
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Joshua London

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Re: Facebook versus the forum...

by Joshua London » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:19 am

Not sure I follow your post. Which forum is too stuffy/not laid back enough? Facebook threads or the "Israeli and Kosher Wine Forums" here?

There isn't really anything too stuffy about 99% of what my facebook feed serves up when I clock in. The degree to which facebook is or isn't engendering laid back discussion on a zillion and one different threads, has as much to do with your facebook connections and groups as anything else. As you said, the medium is part of the issue. Facebook is a social media space for lots of (possible) things, not just one bundled topic of interest (like "wine"). Facebook is programmed to keep one's attention and prolong one's facebook activity. Integration with smart phones makes it even easier, and so more likely to be used on the fly.

Just my two cents.
Last edited by Joshua London on Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Gabriel Geller

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Re: Facebook versus the forum...

by Gabriel Geller » Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:14 am

We need an iphone/android application for the forum. That might have some impact.
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Re: Facebook versus the forum...

by Isaac C » Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:47 am

We could create a private group on FB that does not show up on anyone's FB page when they post - it would have the "less stuffy" advantage of FB but is much more organized and less invasive than a message thread with a bunch of people.
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Jonathan K

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Re: Facebook versus the forum...

by Jonathan K » Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:50 am

David Raccah wrote:That cricket sound you hear - that is what happens when facebook threads of us freaks - go some 100 comments or more long. As much as I love my daily fix of FB caffeine, I think the forum needs a way to get less stuffy and more laid back - like we are on the forum. The medium itself is of course part of the problem - but what do you all think?


While English is my first language, I am not sure I understand the post. Let me know if I have it right-
Facebook is taking up people's attention that might otherwise be on the forum. The forum needs to adapt in some way to survive as anything meaningful as evidenced by the lack of traffic here.
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David Raccah

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Re: Facebook versus the forum...

by David Raccah » Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:09 pm

Indeed - I was worried I was not clear. The forum has become less and less relevant. Used often when looking for particular notes, and of course the weekly weekend thread. On Facebook - a bunch of us are pounding away on the keyboard IM'ing and blabbering away about the world of wine - which is hilarious and definitely not for the open spaces of the forum -which feels more formal.

The forum needs to add a less formal location - like FB and allow people to just hang out. There is a weekly chat that the other forum uses - but that, while less formal, is still formal in the sense that I have no idea who any of the people are.

David
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Re: Facebook versus the forum...

by Andrew B » Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:46 pm

Other wine forums have the "Wine Talk" page for discussion and then a "Social Hall" for chatting and other topics. But a mobile app might be good too.
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Craig Winchell

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Re: Facebook versus the forum...

by Craig Winchell » Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:15 pm

Gee, I'm not sure any of this really matters. 90% of my forum time is spent on the other one, which is more robust and vibrant. And I don't really do Facebook all that much. It's nice to have this place for kosher talk. I have a life, and I go onto Facebook maybe once every 2 or 3 days, whereas this place I have been accessing a few times a day (nothing of interest lately, though). Too much meaningless chatter on Facebook in other areas of my friends' lives, and not much of interest there. this place is easy to monitor for interesting topics, Facebook less so. I'm not sure a facebook group would be any better, especially if it takes a jump from my home news feed.
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Joshua London

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Re: Facebook versus the forum...

by Joshua London » Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:56 pm

I'm with Craig on this.

There is a trade-off to trying to make this more of a social club for a couple of dozen folks (or less) around the globe. The more informal, core group driven any medium is, the greater is the 'closed-ranks' or 'circled-wagon' feel to anyone not in the group. Traffic here is as much about having something to say, as saying it - and it is partly the degree to which there has been any value added with minimal barrier to new entrants that drives folks to dip in or tune out.

Think of it this way: If I stumbled on this forum and discovered that most threads seemed like informal facebook conversations between a group of pals, I'd probably move on because its just chatter - I wouldn't be learning anything about kosher or Israeli wine, about the market, about new wines or trends or whatever, and so it would add nothing to my wine own appreciation or knowledge -- and it wouldn't really be fun for anyone who isn't already "in it."

I guess my views here should be taken with a healthy grain of salt as I'm hardly an active member, but part of what has kept me away since the forum migrated over from Stratsplace was that Rogov allowed it to become more and more about less and less, and then his death reduced a large chunk of what was left. The community that remained and/or has since joined or become active has filled some of that void, but only so much... hence Raccah's "cricket sound."

I frankly don't see how making this forum less formal and even more chatty will add value to what remains a fairly narrow space. Again, just my two cents.
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Gabriel Geller

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Re: Facebook versus the forum...

by Gabriel Geller » Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:17 pm

David Raccah wrote:The forum needs to add a less formal location - like FB and allow people to just hang out. There is a weekly chat that the other forum uses - but that, while less formal, is still formal in the sense that I have no idea who any of the people are.

Actually I've myself participated in the weekly chat on the other forum several times and all I can say is that it is pretty much like the crazy chatting a bunch of us are having on facebook lately. It is even less wine-related as many of the folks there chat about everything and nothing all at the same time with wine related topics jumping in here and there from time to time.
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Adam M

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Re: Facebook versus the forum...

by Adam M » Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:07 am

I don't "do" FB; it is prohibited - along with all other social media outlets - on my office computer.
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Yossie Horwitz

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Re: Facebook versus the forum...

by Yossie Horwitz » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:08 pm

I pretty much agree with everything Josh said. At the risk of sounding a bit snobby, I like that the forum has an unspoken entry barrier - quality content (or at least used to). While Facebook is a more informal medium that allows for freer "conversation" like discussion, there is no barrier to what is said or discussed, resulting in a large ratio of meaningless drivel for every bit of quality (in this case) wine-related information.

Since Rogov's passing, in addition to the obvious loss of a big chuck of the forum's professional/quality content, the level of discourse has been reduced from a more professional discussion of wines, varietals, trends in the industry, etc. to more entry-level discourse. While this has benefited the forum's declining participating membership by opening it up forum to more and more participants (which is a very positive thing), it has also resulted in the fact that there is less quality wine-related information being discussed/offered here, further driving away many of the old-time regulars...
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Re: Facebook versus the forum...

by Craig Winchell » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:16 am

Since Rogov's passing, in addition to the obvious loss of a big chuck of the forum's professional/quality content, the level of discourse has been reduced from a more professional discussion of wines, varietals, trends in the industry, etc. to more entry-level discourse.


So there is no reason that participants cannot add such posts to the mix. I try, for instance, when I run across interesting articles, to provide a link to forum members.
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Re: Facebook versus the forum...

by Isaac C » Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:30 am

The Facebook conversations are definitely not something we want to have posted onto this forum - it's a different style conversation, and as Yossie said, there is a lot of conversation that is not directly relevant to wine. I don't see why the two can't coexist - the forum is what it is, and regardless of whether participation is dwindling or not, I don't think it's because there is no way to have conversations like on Facebook. And even if that were true, then who cares, as long as we have a place to talk about wine. If people want a "chat room" for this group to have those informal conversations, I'm sure that can easily be done on facebook or google plus - I think people would be more inclined to use one of those more frequently than enter a chat room on this site.
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Yossie Horwitz

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Re: Facebook versus the forum...

by Yossie Horwitz » Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:35 am

Agreed. My concern is that we are losing some of the wine conversation to FB. As we have discussed in the past, with Rogov gone, each of us needs to work a bit harder at contributing and maintaining the forum IF we want it to survive.
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Yehoshua Werth

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Re: Facebook versus the forum...

by Yehoshua Werth » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:29 pm

Change again...Agree ...

"Content, Content, Content"

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Re: Facebook versus the forum...

by Avi Hein » Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:04 pm

It ought not to be an either/or - they are very different medium. I think many were active on this forum as a place to interact with Rogov and the discussion he faciliated. AT the same time, even 5 years ago, social media was very different -- there were very few English blogs about Israeli wine (I just started my own in 2007, and yes, much content, was taken from scoops here), Twitter was almost non-existent and Facebook only recently opened to non-students. The medium has changed.

Where are the conversations going on on Facebook? If you're not a fan already, please join https://www.facebook.com/israelwine


What are your favorite places to talk about Israeli wine?
It's Israeli Wine 2.0 - HaKerem: The Israeli Wine Blog - http://www.israeli-wine.org
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/avihein - @avihein & http://www.twitter.com/israelwines - @israelwines
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/israelwine
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Re: Facebook versus the forum...

by Robin Garr » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:29 am

Dropping in here to respect this conversation, let me say that I enjoy Facebook too, but view it as a rather different experience. I use my Facebook page (Robin Garr, where you are all more than welcome to "friend" me) in a rather different way, where I connect with a variety of friends old and new and bring together all the different circles I live in at one central place where I can share whatever is on my mind at the time (that doesn't exceed my personal bounds of privacy) whether it be food or wine or liberal politics or progressive theology or music and art and literature or something else.

The forums are much more constrained to specific topics and incorporate a smaller circle of people who come together to talk about food and wine - and in the case of this forum, Israeli and kosher wines. I see room for both, and can only repeat my frequent reassurance: Even with Rogov gone, this community is warmly welcome here, and I am happy to provide an online home for you.

All that said, if you would like to have an "off topic" forum added within this section as a place where only registered members can post on topics other than food and wine, I can easily do that. If you decide you'd like to have another room added on, just let me know.
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Re: Facebook versus the forum...

by Craig Winchell » Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:50 pm

Having seen the Wine Insanity chatline on Facebook, I can definitely see why it is compelling. Many of the more regulars have migrated to that forum, where recognition is instantaneous to those who require dialogue. Although only a few are on it, it bustles with activity. As opposed to this forum, where fewer are active participants now, and we slog through 1 or 2 posts per day. For me, it doesn't matter because I have little to post anyway, but I wonder at the value of either (a lot of the chat there has no value, but neither does the dead space here). Come on, people, let's make this relevant or fold it. Ideas would be welcome. The high point here recently seems to have been Rogov's drinking windows.
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Re: Facebook versus the forum...

by Elchonon Hellinger » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:32 pm

If wine used to once be a thing of passion and romantics, nowadays we want to have an enjoyable wine time.. we laugh, we joke, we pull shenigans and we are all insane..

Do you sit or swallow ?
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Re: Facebook versus the forum...

by Craig Winchell » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:38 pm

I didn't know sitting and swallowing were mutually exclusive. But if you mean "spit", I do both, depending upon my purpose in tasting.

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