Founded by the late Daniel Rogov, focusing primarily on wines that are either kosher or Israeli.
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Gabriel Geller

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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

by Gabriel Geller » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:42 pm

David Raccah wrote:Yedidya - are you saying that the 2006 RSR is tasting well and you think it will last till 2018?

Tasted the 06 RSR again last Tuesday and I dunno about Yedidya's opinion but in my experience it is drinking great now. 2018? I don't know but easily 2015-16. In Israel at least.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

by Adam M » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:55 pm

I have had a few bottles of the 06 Recanati SR that I purchased a few years ago within the past two months.they were ok enjoyable but clearly rough around the edges and not lasting into the second day like a wine with a lot longer to last. I wrote of my experiences on Harry's thread back in the summer of 2011 how much I really enjoyed this wine, giving it the highest marks. That was nearly two years ago. That, I believe is also when the wine was at its peak. My remaining bottles re no longer at this level.

As for Michael P's comments about the various reasons for my observations regarding the Yarden wines:

My wines never sat on a retailer's shelf
I have cellared the wines about as properly as one can
I have nothing particularly overly critical or cynical about my palate.
I buy in case increments and Yarden SWEARS that to have an entire case spoiled is really unrealistic.

If folks in Israel haven't had these same experiences, I again will point to the mid-summer transport as the possible culprit.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

by Michael P » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:23 am

Adam M wrote:
As for Michael P's comments about the various reasons for my observations regarding the Yarden wines:

My wines never sat on a retailer's shelf
I have cellared the wines about as properly as one can
I have nothing particularly overly critical or cynical about my palate.
I buy in case increments and Yarden SWEARS that to have an entire case spoiled is really unrealistic.

If folks in Israel haven't had these same experiences, I again will point to the mid-summer transport as the possible culprit.


Adam,

I agree its unlikely an entire case was spoiled. But if all your 2004-2007 Yarden and Recanati wines are spoiled this is a different issue than drinking windows - I would agree shipping storage may indeed be the culprit. Worth noting that spoiled and past its peak are two different categories.

As for a critical or cynical palate - my sincere apologies if you thought I was aiming for either of those. My point was only that some enjoy mature wines and some enjoy youthful wines. Personally, I don't enjoy wines from Beaujolais or even Alsace. I don't think that makes my palate bad - just honest.

Michael
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

by Steven B » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:51 am

It's interesting that Recanati is an issue. Is it the importer that handles all of the shipping? Because Recanati is imported by Palm Bay Importers, and it is hard to imagine that they don't know how to ship wine.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

by Adam M » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:55 pm

Hi Michael - many thanks for your response as well as the clarification. Just to be clear, I am not suggesting that my Yarden single vineyards are spoiled. Rather, they are too hard around the edges in terms of astringency and stewed plum for where they should be in Rogov's windows.

As for the recanati's, agree that a distributor of many no kosher wines should have a more tried and true method of shipping. Not to say that Israel may be a different animal all together when it comes to shipping, but I really have no idea.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

by lewis.pasco » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:01 pm

I can't add too much to this thread as my personal supply of Recanati's Reserves and RSRs have dwindled to near nil. But I did open a 2005 RSR about 3 months ago that was darn near on point of peak - certainly not the least bit past prime - and it had survived two trans-Atlantic trans-US trips by plane and several years of unconditioned storage too hot over summers in Israel and in the CA Sierra Foothills. IE, any bottles anyone has of the 2005 RSR that have been well stored should be before their peak still.

The '04 wouldn't have the same life for sure partly because our handling during the wine's barrel aging became less oxidative during life of the 2005 in barrels. A friend has a 2006 Reserve Cab Franc that has been stored in Israel since it's market release, and I should be tasting that soon if he wasn't kidding me. Also I have one more 2005 RSR that has been poorly stored in Israel that I will open - if my mother-in-law lets me - this coming Lila Seder for Pesach. I pray it hasn't been roasted stored at her home for at least 5 years...

So I'll be posting updates as available soon.

Interesting thread on all accounts thanks for starting it.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

by Adam M » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:00 am

Thanks for your post, Lewis. Very interesting. I'll open an 07 recanti SR during the holiday and will see if it is treating me any better than my 06s. I am fully expecting that it will.

I opened another 07 yarden Yonatan syrah this past Shabbat and was welcomed by the same slightly harsh unpleasantness that I experienced last week. This week the wine had a slight metallic taste, as if I were drinking it with tuna (which I wasn't).

OOF!! :evil:
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

by Elie Poltorak » Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:28 pm

Guys, time to give the crack pipe a rest. The Ortal Merlot is drinking fabulously and isn't going anywhere anytime soon. 2018 might be optimistic, but it isn't going anywhere in the next 2-3 years. On the other hand, I don't see it improving any further, so drink away!
Someone must've had a bad bottle and started this meme. NOTHING wrong with it whatsoever.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

by David Raccah » Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:47 pm

Elie - either you do not like sweet or you do - but this wishy washy is weird. The Ortal merlot and syrah are ALL super sweet and rich and big, but my issue - is the sweet. EL Rom continue to impress!!!
Checkout http://www.kosherwinemusings.com for my blogs on the world of kosher wines and follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/kosherwinemuse.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

by Adam M » Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:09 pm

Elie Poltorak wrote:Guys, time to give the crack pipe a rest. The Ortal Merlot is drinking fabulously and isn't going anywhere anytime soon. 2018 might be optimistic, but it isn't going anywhere in the next 2-3 years. On the other hand, I don't see it improving any further, so drink away!
Someone must've had a bad bottle and started this meme. NOTHING wrong with it whatsoever.


Hi Eli - I don't smoke crack. And I have nothing against Yarden. On the contrary, I consider myself one of its biggest and most loyal fans. I have a large collection of all of their SVs since 01. And I am only calling them as I see them. Could be just me (and Isaac C). But the main reason for my post other than to share my view, was to solicit the experiences of other forumites (particularly those in the US) on this topic so that my own views can either be validated or questioned. Being accused of smoking crack was not a remark that I was intending to solicit. :roll:

To me, this is a topic that is straight down the middle of the fairway of what this forum should be discussing. Seems as though other forumites might be more interested in posting their own tasting notes to either support their business interests or their blog interests, or whatever else (ok, that was a soft jab, but with all due affection and respect :wink: ). But I must say that I am a little disappointed that others haven't jumped in and shared their experiences.

To me, that's really what this forum is for. The good, the bad and the ugly. Unedited and unspun.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

by Elie Poltorak » Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:14 pm

David Raccah wrote:Elie either you do not like sweet or you do - but this wishy washy is weird. The Ortal merlot and syrah are ALL super sweet and rich and big, but my issue - is the sweet. EL Rom continue to impress!!!


1. I never denied being weird.
2. I don't mind a bit of sweetness in a merlot or syrah, but I generally can't tolerate it in a cab or cab- dominated blend, which is why I passed on the Yonatan CS.
3. This has nothing to do with drinking windows or how the wine has evolved. These wines always had some dates.
4. The sweetness is controlled and not at all stewed or overripe - definitely not "supersweet."
Last edited by Elie Poltorak on Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

by Elie Poltorak » Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:19 pm

Adam M wrote:
Elie Poltorak wrote:Guys, time to give the crack pipe a rest. The Ortal Merlot is drinking fabulously and isn't going anywhere anytime soon. 2018 might be optimistic, but it isn't going anywhere in the next 2-3 years. On the other hand, I don't see it improving any further, so drink away!
Someone must've had a bad bottle and started this meme. NOTHING wrong with it whatsoever.


Hi Eli - I don't smoke crack. And I have nothing against Yarden. On the contrary, I consider myself one of its biggest and most loyal fans. I have a large collection of all of their SVs since 01. And I am only calling them as I see them. Could be just me (and Isaac C). But the main reason for my post other than to share my view, was to solicit the experiences of other forumites (particularly those in the US) on this topic so that my own views can either be validated or questioned. Being accused of smoking crack was not a remark that I was intending to solicit. :roll:

To me, this is a topic that is straight down the middle of the fairway of what this forum should be discussing. Seems as though other forumites might be more interested in posting their own tasting notes to either support their business interests or their blog interests, or whatever else (ok, that was a soft jab, but with all due affection and respect :wink: ). But I must say that I am a little disappointed that others haven't jumped in and shared their experiences.

To me, that's really what this forum is for. The good, the bad and the ugly. Unedited and unspun.


Mark:
Lighten up. I was kidding around. I totally agree that this discussion is what the forum is for. The discussion prompted me to crack open an Ortal merlot and I'm reporting back my experience. I look forward to tasting through my other SVs soon and reporting back so we can compare notes.
I'm not doubting your or Isaacs experiences- merely reporting mine.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

by Isaac Chavel » Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:39 pm

To me, this is a topic that is straight down the middle of the fairway of what this forum should be discussing. Seems as though other forumites might be more interested in posting their own tasting notes to either support their business interests or their blog interests, or whatever else (ok, that was a soft jab, but with all due affection and respect ). But I must say that I am a little disappointed that others haven't jumped in and shared their experiences.


I appreciate the soft jab as just that --- soft. But, as to why there is no broader comment on the issue: it could very well be that people do not cellar their wine that long, nor spend regularly on Yarden SVs when more reasonably priced alternatives are available. My guess is that most good kosher wines are intended to drink from release, say, 2 years from harvest, to 5 years --- which takes us back to 2007 --- and most wines reported on the forum (excluding people in the biz, bloggers, and a few very serious drinkers) are from 2007 forward. Disclaimer: I did not do a statistical survey, rather it is just an impression. To collect and hold wines longer would involve a rather substantial fridge or a cellar. And that might not be typical of all the forumites.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

by Elie Poltorak » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:01 pm

Isaac Chavel wrote:
To me, this is a topic that is straight down the middle of the fairway of what this forum should be discussing. Seems as though other forumites might be more interested in posting their own tasting notes to either support their business interests or their blog interests, or whatever else (ok, that was a soft jab, but with all due affection and respect ). But I must say that I am a little disappointed that others haven't jumped in and shared their experiences.


I appreciate the soft jab as just that --- soft. But, as to why there is no broader comment on the issue: it could very well be that people do not cellar their wine that long, nor spend regularly on Yarden SVs when more reasonably priced alternatives are available. My guess is that most good kosher wines are intended to drink from release, say, 2 years from harvest, to 5 years --- which takes us back to 2007 --- and most wines reported on the forum (excluding people in the biz, bloggers, and a few very serious drinkers) are from 2007 forward. Disclaimer: I did not do a statistical survey, rather it is just an impression. To collect and hold wines longer would involve a rather substantial fridge or a cellar. And that might not be typical of all the forumites.


Isaac:
That's a huge over-generalization. Some wines are good from release and fade rapidly. Others need minimum 5 years just to be approachable. And yet others are good from release but continue to improve with time.
Also, I think the Yarden SVs are VERY reasonably priced compared with other wineries' premium offerings.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

by Alek W » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:11 pm

Just for the record: opened a bottle of Ortal Syrah 2004 yesterday. As Elie said, it is not going anywhere anytime soon.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

by Adam M » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:51 pm

Thanks Eli and Alek for sharing your experiences on the 04 Ortal. Your opinion in how the wine was perceived by you is helpful. I am re-interpreting your matter of fact statements as your own experience based on your own bottles. My Ortals didn't survive a couple of years ago. Isaac's had a similar experience. So there aint no matter of fact about this, that's for sure! But what I am getting out of this is that there appears to be a bottle variation issue that should concern any serious collector thinking about putting a wine away for 5+ under the assumption that drinking windows will hold true.

Isaac: your points are well taken in regards to forumites who may either not purchase SVs or may not cellar wines for more than a few years. I know for fact, however, that there are handful of forumites to indeed cellar these wines. It was to them that I was primarily addressing.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

by Isaac Chavel » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:07 pm

Isaac: ... I know for fact, however, that there are handful of forumites to indeed cellar these wines. It was to them that I was primarily addressing.


I appreciated that. Even though it was hardly practical for me, I nonetheless followed the thread with interest --- just in case I win Lotto or Powerball one day .
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

by Elie Poltorak » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:44 pm

Adam M wrote:Thanks Eli and Alek for sharing your experiences on the 04 Ortal. Your opinion in how the wine was perceived by you is helpful. I am re-interpreting your matter of fact statements as your own experience based on your own bottles. My Ortals didn't survive a couple of years ago. Isaac's had a similar experience. So there aint no matter of fact about this, that's for sure! But what I am getting out of this is that there appears to be a bottle variation issue that should concern any serious collector thinking about putting a wine away for 5+ under the assumption that drinking windows will hold true.

Isaac: your points are well taken in regards to forumites who may either not purchase SVs or may not cellar wines for more than a few years. I know for fact, however, that there are handful of forumites to indeed cellar these wines. It was to them that I was primarily addressing.


I was just being my usual bombastic, obnoxious self... :wink:
I look forward to tasting the Ortal Syrah soon and will report back.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

by Alek W » Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:38 am

Adam M wrote:Thanks Eli and Alek for sharing your experiences on the 04 Ortal. Your opinion in how the wine was perceived by you is helpful. I am re-interpreting your matter of fact statements as your own experience based on your own bottles. My Ortals didn't survive a couple of years ago. Isaac's had a similar experience. So there aint no matter of fact about this, that's for sure! But what I am getting out of this is that there appears to be a bottle variation issue that should concern any serious collector thinking about putting a wine away for 5+ under the assumption that drinking windows will hold true.


More on Ortal: I had the last bottle of Ortal Merlot 2001 last May, and it was in a perfect condition. Bought upon release, never left Israel, stored in a vine cellar. So, I rather believe in bad shipping conditions than in bottle variations.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

by lewis.pasco » Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:06 am

A few points regarding the 2006 vintage RSR an other reserve reds:

1) 2006 was the vintage of the Hezbolla - Lebanon war. Several of Recanati's best vineyards were within a Roberto Clementi toss from the outfield from the Lebanon border. Not only could I not access those vineyards to monitor them during key stages of their ripening, the vineyard manager at Manara (for example) wasn't allowed to monitor or treat them either. So the possibilities for growing and selecting from Recanati's full range of vineyards was limited that year. Some blocks like Manara's Cab Franc block that made our 2005 Cab Franc Reserve (and IIRC was a small % of the 2005 RSR as well) as well as Manara's best Merlot and Cab blocks were not at the same quality as the 2004 or 2005 vintages. The "happy" result of this was that from under-ripe (for red wine production) Cab Franc there I made Recanati's first Rose...

Recanati's Ben Zimra vineyards were NOT affected by the war, and that's where most of the best reds came from that year.

2) Aside from the war, 2006 was NOT as good a vintage as '04 or '05.

3) The RSR series and indeed all the Reserve series reds were finished and bottled by the Gil Shatsberg and Ido Levinson winemaking team, not by me. I was thrilled by the quality of the Cab Franc Reserve 2006, which was the 1st of all those bottled IIRC, but even that was done by Ido and Gil. I'm not suggesting I would have done anything differently from what they did, and by my protocol the assemblage of the blends for each wine in the RSR and reserve series reds was done long before the transition between me and Gil. But sometimes it's possible that the wines would "suffer" from a winemaking change. Again I have no reason to think they did AT ALL, and for that matter Gil and Ido may well have improved upon my blends or my method of handling the wines in preparation for bottling - certainly we had ample time to discuss the wines and protocols before I left, and Gil and I had known each other for a very long time before the transition - we were students in UC Davis's MS Enology program together 15 years before.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

by Adam M » Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:02 am

Hi Lewis, and thanks very much for contributing to this thread so candidly.

I believe that the RSRs are among the top values on the market today. To be crystal clear, I am not in any way suggesting that the 06 wasn't on this standard. My only point is that, for me, it reached this standard back in the summer of 2011 when I was drinking it on nearly a weekly basis for about 6 weeks (wrote all about it on the forum at the time, which can be searched). I then took a break and came back to the wine within the last few months and was disappointed that I missed the sweet spot based on the condition of my bottles (not to take away anything from anyone else's bottles, which might be just fine). Your remarks are somewhat consistent, or at least are what to make sense of, with my observations, which is helpful. But make no mistake, the RSRs are wonderful. I have a bunch of 07s on hand and will (BH) try one this week and report back.

BTW, I'm a HUGE fan of the Recanati Rose. So much fun and enjoyable at a great price.

And you guys deserve a lot of credit on the cab franc. Well done!

Best, Adam
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

by lewis.pasco » Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:19 am

Adam, I never took your comments as a slam against Recanati. I'm not familiar with the 2006s and how they might have aged - particularly the RSR, and there's no way I ever expected it to hold up longer than the 2005s or to improve beyond the 2005's capacity to improve.

The fact that Rogov tagged a somewhat longer drinking window on the 2006 RSR than the 2005 was, to put it in the best light, a little joke between us (meaning him and me.) If he was WRONG about the 2006 lasting longer than the 2005 - I win the wager we made back when.

I'm not invested in this the way you think I might be...
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

by Isaac Chavel » Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:23 am

I win the wager we made back when.


And when do you expect to collect?
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

by Adam M » Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:48 am

lewis.pasco wrote:I'm not invested in this the way you think I might be...


Lewis - I have no thoughts whatsoever regarding any investments you may or may not have. I didn't even know that you were affiliated with Recanati until about an hour ago when I finally put two and two together. I simply interpreted your post to say that due to various circumstances (which you laid out) you wouldn't be surprised that the 06 vintage of the SR may not hold up (i) as well as previous (and possibly later, though you have no first hand knowledge) vintages (particularly the 03-05) and (ii) as well as Rogov and possibly others may have projected. That's all. And I found this validating of my own observations, which is that this wine was fantastic, I mean really top notch, but much more so 1+ years ago than now. I'm skipping all the drama that might exist in the undertones here b/c I am focused on my own question, which is trying to understand why certain of the premium wines that I have aren't lasting as long as I was told.

Your remarks also validate another view that I have always had which is that the winemaker might in some cases hold the key as to a particular wine's longevity, not a wine writer or a critic...
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