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WTN: Chablis premox alert

by Jenise » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:26 am

2006 Domaine Laroche Chablis 1er Cru Les Fourchaumes VV: deep orange-y gold overripe color, oxidated sherry-like flavors. Purchased and opened same day in case I wanted to go back for more (it was discounted to $28). Um--no!
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David M. Bueker

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Re: WTN: Chablis premox alert

by David M. Bueker » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:27 pm

It's so sad that they have not figured it out yet.
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Re: WTN: Chablis premox alert

by Tim York » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:14 pm

Doesn't Laroche use screwcaps?
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Re: WTN: Chablis premox alert

by Jenise » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:22 pm

Tim York wrote:Doesn't Laroche use screwcaps?


Yes.
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Re: WTN: Chablis premox alert

by David M. Bueker » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:31 pm

Just adding to my doubt about corks being the issue. Of course screw caps can be damaged, thus breaking the seal.
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Re: WTN: Chablis premox alert

by Jenise » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:39 pm

David M. Bueker wrote:Just adding to my doubt about corks being the issue. Of course screw caps can be damaged, thus breaking the seal.


Can a damaged screw cap feel perfectly normal and intact--no leaks, nothing obvious, snapping apart just like it should etc?
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Re: WTN: Chablis premox alert

by David M. Bueker » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:11 pm

Jenise wrote:
David M. Bueker wrote:Just adding to my doubt about corks being the issue. Of course screw caps can be damaged, thus breaking the seal.


Can a damaged screw cap feel perfectly normal and intact--no leaks, nothing obvious, snapping apart just like it should etc?


Yes. I've seen that very condition.
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Re: WTN: Chablis premox alert

by Jenise » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:26 pm

David--oh crap! Not what I wanted to hear, of course.
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Re: WTN: Chablis premox alert

by David M. Bueker » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:38 pm

Understood. Realize that it's not a common thing, and given that screwcapped wines are often stored upright, not easy to detect.
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Re: WTN: Chablis premox alert

by Jenise » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:40 am

Btw, did I use the term 'premox' correctly? I thought I understood that changes in winemaking technique and not closures were thought to be responsible for the early crashing of white burgs.
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Re: WTN: Chablis premox alert

by David M. Bueker » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:53 am

Sadly they do not know what really causes it. Assuming your bottle did not have a damaged closure, you did use the term correctly.
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Re: WTN: Chablis premox alert

by Victorwine » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:38 am

Hi Jenise,
A few years ago I attended a winemaking seminar on “ATypical Aging” aromas or flavors” (ATA’s) sponsored by Cornell. A distinction was made between ATA’s and premature aging, in that the formation of ATA’s (furniture wax, wet/dirty kitchen dish cloth (mopeen), mothball aromas etc.) resulted in loss of varietal characteristics and premature aging did not necessarily result in the wine losing its “varietal” character. (Most admit though sometimes it resulted in a “not so good Sherry-like wine”).

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Re: WTN: Chablis premox alert

by Jenise » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:14 pm

Victor, good distinctions. Because of the color so atypical of Chablis, this one seemed to have "premature aging" all over it. But here's an interesting bit of breaking news: just heard from the retailer and he's had two bottles of this himself which are nothing, he says, like what I described.
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Re: WTN: Chablis premox alert

by Dale Williams » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:39 pm

Jenise wrote:Victor, good distinctions. Because of the color so atypical of Chablis, this one seemed to have "premature aging" all over it. But here's an interesting bit of breaking news: just heard from the retailer and he's had two bottles of this himself which are nothing, he says, like what I described.


Which is typical premox (if not retailer BS), This issue with premOx is that 15-35% of wines that should be aged die too young. And tasting one bottle from your case doesn't necessarily give you an accurate assessment of the others. Even with some of the producers considered the worst offenders ( Bonneau du Martray, Colin-Deleger,Matrot, Carillon, Sauzet) I've sometimes gotten beautiful and youthful bottles. John Gilman told a great story about a discussion re premox with Veronique Drouhin, he opened a bottle of '99 Mouches to prove his point, and it was of course glorious (as were 2 of my 4 bottles).
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Re: WTN: Chablis premox alert

by Victorwine » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:53 pm

Hi Dale,
The term “premOx” is fairly new. I’m pretty sure the phenomenon itself is not. (The German’s have been looking at ATA’s since the early to mid 80’s.) In the past it was all most likely chalked up to be “bottle variation”.
Someone recently describes a wine gracefully maturing in a dark cool cellar as “sleeping”. Hopefully it isn’t “sleeping” all the time. Something is occurring inside that bottle of wine, some components in that wine are being oxidized and some components are undergoing reduction (plus a slew of other reactions). All I’m trying to say is that “premature oxidation” doesn’t necessarily mean the wine is “dead “ yet. Depending upon the stage it is at and ones tolerance for it could mean that the wine might still give some pleasure. (Some people like bananas better on the brownish side).

Dale wrote;
And tasting one bottle from your case doesn't necessarily give you an accurate assessment of the others.

Totally agree with you there, once a wine is bottled and sealed it becomes its own entity

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Re: WTN: Chablis premox alert

by Patrick Martin » Wed May 01, 2013 2:08 am

I drank so many amazing white burgs at age 10-12 from the vintages of '89, '90, and '92. Premox is really sad, I love aged chablis so much, it could be my favorite white.

That said, I just had a 2000 Fevre Bourgos Chablis that was fresh and excellent, so I agree with Dale: it's a crapshoot.

I still buy Chablis (mostly from Premier Cru), but I drink 'em young now.
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Re: WTN: Chablis premox alert

by Jenise » Wed May 01, 2013 9:48 am

Dale Williams wrote:
Jenise wrote:Victor, good distinctions. Because of the color so atypical of Chablis, this one seemed to have "premature aging" all over it. But here's an interesting bit of breaking news: just heard from the retailer and he's had two bottles of this himself which are nothing, he says, like what I described.


Which is typical premox (if not retailer BS), This issue with premOx is that 15-35% of wines that should be aged die too young. And tasting one bottle from your case doesn't necessarily give you an accurate assessment of the others. Even with some of the producers considered the worst offenders ( Bonneau du Martray, Colin-Deleger,Matrot, Carillon, Sauzet) I've sometimes gotten beautiful and youthful bottles. John Gilman told a great story about a discussion re premox with Veronique Drouhin, he opened a bottle of '99 Mouches to prove his point, and it was of course glorious (as were 2 of my 4 bottles).


No, not retailer B.S.--this guy's a friend. The names you mention--I haven't seen that list before. I'm two-premoxed for two on a pair of 04 Sauzets but have had two good bottles of 04 Carillon--though they did not resemble each other in the slightest, one was youthfully bright and keen and six months later another was reticent and chablis-like though otherwise fine. Another Carillon remains int eh cellar--should open soon, I guess!
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Re: WTN: Chablis premox alert

by Jenise » Wed May 01, 2013 9:57 am

Victorwine wrote: All I’m trying to say is that “premature oxidation” doesn’t necessarily mean the wine is “dead “ yet. Depending upon the stage it is at and ones tolerance for it could mean that the wine might still give some pleasure. (Some people like bananas better on the brownish side).


My husband--who loves sherry--actually kind of liked the wine as long as he could drink it with something celery-ish to munch on (fresh celery and some gouda cheese sprinkled with a little celery salt)--celery will block a lot of oxidative flavors. I tasted it that way too to see if there was anything even remotely chablis-like beyond the oxidation and there wasn't, it just tasted like ripe chardonnay. Last thing one wants from Chablis.
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Re: WTN: Chablis premox alert

by Victorwine » Wed May 01, 2013 10:14 am

Hi Jenise,
Jenise wrote:
I tasted it that way too to see if there was anything even remotely chablis-like beyond the oxidation and there wasn't, it just tasted like ripe chardonnay. Last thing one wants from Chablis.

Definitely understand where you are coming from! But I’m going to ask you one question, and I’m sure you will get it right. What is Chablis made from?

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Re: WTN: Chablis premox alert

by Jenise » Wed May 01, 2013 10:22 am

Victorwine wrote:
Definitely understand where you are coming from! But I’m going to ask you one question, and I’m sure you will get it right. What is Chablis made from?

Salute


Oh come on, you know what I meant. I should have used better adjectives. Like "over-ripe California chardonnay." Chablis should never taste like that, of course.
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Re: WTN: Chablis premox alert

by Lou Kessler » Wed May 01, 2013 8:33 pm

Jenise wrote:
Victorwine wrote:
Definitely understand where you are coming from! But I’m going to ask you one question, and I’m sure you will get it right. What is Chablis made from?

Salute


Oh come on, you know what I meant. I should have used better adjectives. Like "over-ripe California chardonnay." Chablis should never taste like that, of course.

I never doubted for a second what you meant.
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Re: WTN: Chablis premox alert

by David M. Bueker » Wed May 01, 2013 8:39 pm

2006 was an overripe year for Chablis.
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Re: WTN: Chablis premox alert

by Jenise » Wed May 01, 2013 9:42 pm

David, I know that, but I've had a few and they were still Chablis: still pale and limestone-y, but less acid and steel. Nothing like this one.
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Re: WTN: Chablis premox alert

by David M. Bueker » Wed May 01, 2013 9:50 pm

I don't doubt your bottle was compromised in some way. Could have been heat just as well as the pox.
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