Does riesling require sugar to age well?

My brother Bob and I were discussing aging in white wines and Bob thinks that just about any white from France has the potential to age. I said I thought riesling from Germany also has that potential. Bob thinks it does if it has enough sweetness to carry it. Do German or other rieslings require sugar to age well? I think that the acidity of riesling should be enough to keep it fresh while aging but I do not have the experience to know if that is true.

What is your experience with aging dry riesling?

Well, Trimbach Clos Ste Hune is quite dry, and ages 30-40 years with no problem. The Cuvee Frederic Emile isn't far behind. I've never had a Austrian Riesling that old, but have had some 15-18 year olds that seemed to have 20 years of future.

Thanks Dale,

I have had some dry rieslings from Alsace and Australia that I really liked, but nothing that old.

Hi Tom,
Besides looking at acidity and RS other factors to consider if a white wine has the potential to age is its pH and if it has oak influence (tannins) or if the wine contains other phenolic compounds related to tannins.

Salute

Well I think there are other factors that add to the potential of aging of a wine than the amount of sugar. Personally I wont buy any more dry high alcohol wines to let them age for a long period of time. Dry wines with 12-13%alcohol with a high viscosity or with a lot of depth which have proven to be age worthy I would buy. To me there are enough evidences that for delicate wines, like German Riesling and Champagne for example, that a certain amount of rs helps/is required to age gracefully.
Another thing is, will the wine improve with age or will it just age. I like for example older dry rieslings but I also like some older Muscadets. Have these wines improved much compared when they were young? I have the feeling they haven't, they have just changed. For me with for example German Riesling or Vintage Champagne it is a different story. I very much prefer an older Champagne (which has some rs) or an Auslese with some bottle age to a younger example of these wines.

Some dry Australian Rieslings will age. Not all of them - and some Australian producers are more optimistic than they ought to be about ageing potential.

I've had a 1979 Leo Buring and 1984 Seppelt at 20+ years of age that have been magnificent. No RS to speak of. Orlando Steingarten also ages beautifully. Petaluma can also age but I've had variable results.

Cheers

Andrew

Some dry Australian Rieslings will age. Not all of them - and some Australian producers are more optimistic than they ought to be about ageing potential.

I've had a 1979 Leo Buring and 1984 Seppelt at 20+ years of age that have been magnificent. No RS to speak of. Orlando Steingarten also ages beautifully. Petaluma can also age but I've had variable results.

Cheers

Andrew

The only experience I have is the Pichler FX Riesling Loibnerberg 1997, I bought 12bottles of this on an auction of this and I find it a brilliant wine. I have drank now three bottles and for my palate they are bone dry, the last time I tasted it I saw on the backlable the word "halbtrocken" I'm not sure if this means the same for Austrian as it means for German wines (9-18g rs) but this would explain to me how this wine is still so "young" and has imho still a long life ahead of it.

[David M. Bueker]

I don't think sugar is required as long as the wine starts out with good balance. There's been a lot of improvement in the making of dry German wines in the last 10-15 years, so that it is more likely (IMO) that today's trockens will age even more gracefully than some of the better dry wines from say 1990-1998.

The German Wine Guide (Gault Millau) does a 10 years on dry wine tasting every year. The reports have been quite postive on vintages such as 1996 and 1997 from what I have heard. As I said above I thing that it will only get better from here.

No where sugar does become an issue is in lieblich kabinett, spatlese and auslese which, if started too dry, can become shrill and hollow with age. The issue is that wines that are balanced between sweetness and acidity can become very unbalanced if one of hte elements mellows out faster than the other. From my experience sugar tends to soften/drop out faster than acidity calms, so that some wines that should just be coming of age (e.g. 1995 auslesen) are tasting a bit shrill because they did not have enough starting sugar to see them through the journey. So with that said, I am not as worried as some by the really big kabinett/spatlese/auslese bottlings of 2003, 2005 & 2006 because they have the sugar to back them up & see them through to old age.

Sugar can be a kind of preservative, but it likely has little, if anything, to do with the properties that we associate with wine aging.

Sugar can be a kind of preservative, but it likely has little, if anything, to do with the properties that we associate with wine aging.

Is it a coincidence that sweet white wines are almost immortal? I mean Sweet Vouvray, TBA, Sauternes, Tokai Aszu etc. There must be a relation between amount of sugar and aging potential I think.

I think that any balanced wine with low alcohol and pH will age well regardless of color. I've had balanced with Zins with 16% alcohol and pH of 3.85 that wouldn't age for more than a few years, so balance insn't the only factor. I think sugar can vary as suggested by others so long as balance in maintained.

Sugar can be a kind of preservative, but it likely has little, if anything, to do with the properties that we associate with wine aging.

Is it a coincidence that sweet white wines are almost immortal? I mean Sweet Vouvray, TBA, Sauternes, Tokai Aszu etc. There must be a relation between amount of sugar and aging potential I think.

As Thomas said, sugar can be a preservative. But it is certainly not required. Sweet Vouvray? Sure, but plenty of Huet secs have aged 40+ years, and Savennieres ages well. TBA Rieslings? Well, I mentioned Clos Ste Hune - the 73 that Bob Ross shared with Robin, Jay, and I was quite young. Sauternes? Well, Haut Brion Blanc and Laville Haut Brion age quite well.

If there is a common factor, it's acidity (there's an old saying that "reds age on their tannins, whites on their acidity" - like many old saws it has some basis in truth, without being the total answer). But on the other hand, some white Burgundies age well, and they are generally bone dry and moderate in acidity (I don't think the fat low acid ones age well). An out of balance wine won't age well.

BTW, I may be reading this wrong, but it looks like a couple of people are confusing Austria with Australia (both make ageable Riesling).

Sugar can be a kind of preservative, but it likely has little, if anything, to do with the properties that we associate with wine aging.

Is it a coincidence that sweet white wines are almost immortal? I mean Sweet Vouvray, TBA, Sauternes, Tokai Aszu etc. There must be a relation between amount of sugar and aging potential I think.

As Thomas said, sugar can be a preservative. But it is certainly not required. Sweet Vouvray? Sure, but plenty of Huet secs have aged 40+ years, and Savennieres ages well. TBA Rieslings? Well, I mentioned Clos Ste Hune - the 73 that Bob Ross shared with Robin, Jay, and I was quite young. Sauternes? Well, Haut Brion Blanc and Laville Haut Brion age quite well.

If there is a common factor, it's acidity (there's an old saying that "reds age on their tannins, whites on their acidity" - like many old saws it has some basis in truth, without being the total answer). But on the other hand, some white Burgundies age well, and they are generally bone dry and moderate in acidity (I don't think the fat low acid ones age well). An out of balance wine won't age well.

BTW, I may be reading this wrong, but it looks like a couple of people are confusing Austria with Australia (both make ageable Riesling).

Ofcourse dry white wines can age gracefully, I will be the last to say the opposite. I do want to point out that a dry white that has aged gracefully is less common than sweet wines.
Yes Savennieres can age very good but on an tasting the 1973 Coulée de Serrant for example was still an immensly interesting wine but for me it was a bit to much. A 1947 Vouvray of Marc Bredif was still going strong and no where near decline. An ordinairy Sauternes can age easily 10years but I wouldnt try that with an normal white Bordeaux (yes Haut-Brion and Pape Clemant and Chevalier are a different story).
On the acidity part, Mr Schildknecht wrote a very informative piece on Grosses Gewachs on the parker forum. In this piece he wrote that the great german riesling in the old days had less acidity than the dry wines have today but that they still could age forever while today that is only the case with a few top wines. I can look the piece up if you want.

If I knew what dry wines have that what it takes to age good I would be a happy man. On another thread we discussed the fact if the high alcohol levels and ripeness in Savennieres takes away there aging potential, will happen to them the same thing that happened to white Burgs, is there a worldwide trend to more ripeness and makes this wines less good to age. Questions, questions and questions and the only thing I know is that I have not answers.

Ofcourse dry white wines can age gracefully, I will be the last to say the opposite. I do want to point out that a dry white that has aged gracefully is less common than sweet wines.
Yes Savennieres can age very good but on an tasting the 1973 Coulée de Serrant for example was still an immensly interesting wine but for me it was a bit to much. A 1947 Vouvray of Marc Bredif was still going strong and no where near decline. An ordinairy Sauternes can age easily 10years but I wouldnt try that with an normal white Bordeaux (yes Haut-Brion and Pape Clemant and Chevalier are a different story).
On the acidity part, Mr Schildknecht wrote a very informative piece on Grosses Gewachs on the parker forum. In this piece he wrote that the great german riesling in the old days had less acidity than the dry wines have today but that they still could age forever while today that is only the case with a few top wines. I can look the piece up if you want.

If I knew what dry wines have that what it takes to age good I would be a happy man. On another thread we discussed the fact if the high alcohol levels and ripeness in Savennieres takes away there aging potential, will happen to them the same thing that happened to white Burgs, is there a worldwide trend to more ripeness and makes this wines less good to age. Questions, questions and questions and the only thing I know is that I have not answers.

Felix,

One of the hallmarks of a solid sweet dessert wine is its high acid or low pH, without which the sweetness would be insipid and the aging would be shortened. Aging is largely a process of chemical reactions to slow oxidation, but wine aging is not fully understood.

Also, ripeness increases pH and makes the wine less stable--less able to age.

Ofcourse dry white wines can age gracefully, I will be the last to say the opposite. I do want to point out that a dry white that has aged gracefully is less common than sweet wines.
Yes Savennieres can age very good but on an tasting the 1973 Coulée de Serrant for example was still an immensly interesting wine but for me it was a bit to much. A 1947 Vouvray of Marc Bredif was still going strong and no where near decline. An ordinairy Sauternes can age easily 10years but I wouldnt try that with an normal white Bordeaux (yes Haut-Brion and Pape Clemant and Chevalier are a different story).
On the acidity part, Mr Schildknecht wrote a very informative piece on Grosses Gewachs on the parker forum. In this piece he wrote that the great german riesling in the old days had less acidity than the dry wines have today but that they still could age forever while today that is only the case with a few top wines. I can look the piece up if you want.

If I knew what dry wines have that what it takes to age good I would be a happy man. On another thread we discussed the fact if the high alcohol levels and ripeness in Savennieres takes away there aging potential, will happen to them the same thing that happened to white Burgs, is there a worldwide trend to more ripeness and makes this wines less good to age. Questions, questions and questions and the only thing I know is that I have not answers.

Felix,

One of the hallmarks of a solid sweet dessert wine is its high acid or low pH, without which the sweetness would be insipid and the aging would be shortened. Aging is largely a process of chemical reactions to slow oxidation, but wine aging is not fully understood.

Also, ripeness increases pH and makes the wine less stable--less able to age.

I totally agree with you that a good sweet needs acidity to be "balanced" and in order to age gracefully needs acids in combination with the sugar. I just question the amount of acids in dry white wines. I'm not sure if there is a correlation between agebility and acidity of white wine. As far as I know goes the pH up from malolactic fermentation but white burgundies made in new oak barrels have the name of being able to age very well for example. A lot of fresh crisp Sauvignon Blancs or wines from Rias Baixas have loads of acidity but are best consumed young.
So I dont question the fact sweet wine needs acid or that dry wines should have no acid. I just doubt if it is correct to say white wines need low pH or loads of acid to be able to age.

I just question the amount of acids in dry white wines. I'm not sure if there is a correlation between agebility and acidity of white wine. As far as I know goes the pH up from malolactic fermentation but white burgundies made in new oak barrels have the name of being able to age very well for example. A lot of fresh crisp Sauvignon Blancs or wines from Rias Baixas have loads of acidity but are best consumed young.
So I dont question the fact sweet wine needs acid or that dry wines should have no acid. I just doubt if it is correct to say white wines need low pH or loads of acid to be able to age.

Felix,
I don't think its accurate to say that any one factor is neccessary for wines to age (and probably none are prohibitive for wines aging). However, I do think there are factors that seem to make a wine more ageable- those might include acidity, tannins (grape or wood), residual sugar, sulphur addition, and dry extract levels. And folks can argue about malic/lactic ratios and other factors as well. But even within white Burgundy (where maybe wood tannins and dry extract are big factors in Cote d'Or) , I think that most of the better aging wines aren't especially low-acid. I generally think that '93s will be longer lived than '90s, for instance. Most of the young Burgundies I've thought ageable had a pretty good zip. So I'm pretty comfortable (within the realm of uncertainity that any discussion of wine aging has- we just don't really know) saying that I think acidity helps wine age.

Dale, I totally agree with you and never wanted to give the impression that I thought u were wrong. But just as acidity is a preservative so is sugar, alcohol and many many other things. I just try to understand as much factors that can help the agebility so I can learn how to better judge young wines and make a better guess to what the drinking window is.

Back on topic. If we agree that sugar is a preservative then it would be save to say that if a totally identical product except that one contains sugar and the other not the one with sugar will be preserved longer. So although sugar is certainly not required to age, like many examples that are given prove, it does help.

Back on topic. If we agree that sugar is a preservative then it would be save to say that if a totally identical product except that one contains sugar and the other not the one with sugar will be preserved longer. So although sugar is certainly not required to age, like many examples that are given prove, it does help.

Felix,

There's the rub. Preserve and age are not the same thing.

Aging is a process--you might call it a downhill process--toward an end, which is THE END.

Preservation is to keep something closer to its early stage--keep it going longer.

Looked at that way, sugar could be a hindrance to the often wonderful mature aging qualities of many wines.

As Dale says, and as I said way above in this thread, wine aging is not fully understood. But I know this: acid/tannin/pH are all crucial to wine's stability. Wine can't age if it suffers microbial spoilage before it has a chance to age. And while sugar is used as a preservative in other foods, relative to other preservatives, it may be a short-term one. It certainly is a lure for certain spoilage in wine, which is why dessert wines come in at much higher SO2 levels.

I don't know what causes some wines to age well, and I've never seen it adequately explained. Wines with high acidity or sugar sometimes age well, sometimes not. Balance is said to be key, but that's nebulous (some great classic Barolos were clearly very unbalanced towards tannin when young, but became great after decades)...

Totally agree with you Thomas- that acidity, pH, and tannin are all critical for a wine’s stability. But as an age worthy wine gracefully ages (somehow) acids (depending upon the type and how much is present) will react with alcohol and form esters that will either contribute positively or negatively to a wine’s “bouquet” aromas. pH is an all important factor in determining what chemical reactions take place in an aqueous solution.

Salute

Tom,
My experience has been that I prefer the aged white wines with a little RS as I think it adds some interesting nuance with age. I do agree that RS is not a requirement to age although I do believe it does help with that process. As you already know I am not a big fan of sweet wines or wines with very much RS so nearly everything aging in my cellar is dry including all the whites. However I do have a few Riesling Spätlese in the cellar that you may get to try some day.

Bob,

Lots of opinions on what makes white wine age well. No one really knows for sure. Two main themes (among many) that I pick up in all the comments are these:

Most people like a bit of RS in their aged rieslings as this makes them a bit more complex and tasty with age, as you point out.

The second theme is balance or proper ripeness of the grapes and resulting wine for aging. Very ripe grapes make a nice drink now wine but it may not be a good ager. I think this is an elusive but sound concept for what is required for wines that age well.

Thank you everyone, for your input. This thread has been a real eye opener for me.

Some dry Australian Rieslings will age. Not all of them - and some Australian producers are more optimistic than they ought to be about ageing potential.

I've had a 1979 Leo Buring and 1984 Seppelt at 20+ years of age that have been magnificent. No RS to speak of. Orlando Steingarten also ages beautifully. Petaluma can also age but I've had variable results.

Cheers

Andrew

The only experience I have is the Pichler FX Riesling Loibnerberg 1997, I bought 12bottles of this on an auction of this and I find it a brilliant wine. I have drank now three bottles and for my palate they are bone dry, the last time I tasted it I saw on the backlable the word "halbtrocken" I'm not sure if this means the same for Austrian as it means for German wines (9-18g rs) but this would explain to me how this wine is still so "young" and has imho still a long life ahead of it.

Uuum, I was thinking Australian Rieslings

[David M. Bueker]

Uuum, I was thinking Australian Rieslings

Well you would. Homer