Is there really such a thing as "sweet tannins"...

On a somewhat similar theme to the "noble tannins" thread, I sometimes come across a note where someone describes the tannins as "sweet". Is this possible? Aren't tannins an almost 100% textural/structural element and isn't sweet a taste (non-physical) element? I think I can largely understand what the term is getting at (that the tannins are simply not harsh, unobtrusive and complimentary to the likely fruit-forward nature of the wine's taste itself), yet "sweet tannins" sounds to me like two illogical terms. Or am I wrong? Tannins do not specifically have a taste do they? In my eyes ( or should I say mouth) tannins are a pure textural/physical element to wine. The wine liquid itself/flavors are what can be sweet/salty etc. I never envision that tannins are to be "tasted" rather than felt. Isn't saying that a wine has sweet tannins kind of like saying that a swatch of velvet fabric tastes "sweet"? Isn't that kind of non-sensical? We don't "taste" velvet, we feel it. Am I so seduced by tannins that I didn't even know that I was supposed to be "tasting" them all this time rather than just making note of their pure (or so I had thought) textural presence?

Jeff

Jeff, Hi.....

In addition to properties that we describe as textural, especially as related to astringency), tannins in their purest form (bite down on the pips of a Tannat or Cabernet Sauvignon grape) do have a flavor and that flavor is one of bitterness. Tannins can, however be influenced by other factors, first in the winemaking process and second in the aging process.

In the winemaking process, tannins may take on a near-sweet or even sweet note depending on the type of wood that was used and how that wood was toasted. Later, as wine matures, even the near-searing tannins of some young wines can take on a sweetness as the various polymers of the wine come together to form a coherent whole.

As to velvet, like marble (I have indeed tasted Michelangelo's David) or flinty minerals have no taste whatsoever. They can and often do, however, impart "taste sensations", that is to say the illusion of tastes based on our past experiences that trigger similar memories. As a small experiment, touch first a piece of silk to your tongue (being sure the tongue is damp) and then, after a few moments, a piece of velvet. No tastes but indeed different taste sensations.


Best
Rogov

As to velvet, like marble (I have indeed tasted Michelangelo's David) or flinty minerals have no taste whatsoever.

Thanks for the very nice explanation on evolution of sweet tannin and how our taste sensors perceive it.

In reference to your statement about Michaeangelo's David, and mainly out of my amazed curiosity, is there any specific reason as to why "taste" this particular marble? I also presume that you refer to the one in the Accademia in Florence.

(I have indeed tasted Michelangelo's David)

Okay, you don't get off that lightly, Rogov.

Which part did you elect to lick, and how hard did the security guard hit you with the truncheon?

(And did you pretend to be English so they would think this was normal barmy behavior?)

First, let it be known that I will "taste" just about anything that I know will not be poisonous or will put me behind bars. With regard to the particular work in question, indeed in Florence, simply a desire to "know" the statue more intimately and as I recall, the part I licked was an arm.

As to the security guard who approached me rather excitedly, I explained as best I could about my desire to taste things and how such tastings could broaden one's repertoire. The guard, a policeman actually, looked at me as if I were quite mad but then did himself put his tongue to a portion of the statue for a moment. He smiled broadly, wished me a good day and we both went about our business.

Best
Rogov

I'll admit that I like to taste things to, Rogov. Usually in a wine context though.

Like limestone in Burgundy, and slate in Bernkastel, for instance. And river pebbles, of course.

And let me tell you, there's a lot of difference between shale and slate. Textural, of course, but taste as well, because of their various compositions and what they've been subjected to. (Hey, ask someone from northern Alberta; they know about shale. )

Jeff, Hi.....

In addition to properties that we describe as textural, especially as related to astringency), tannins in their purest form (bite down on the pips of a Tannat or Cabernet Sauvignon grape) do have a flavor and that flavor is one of bitterness. Tannins can, however be influenced by other factors, first in the winemaking process and second in the aging process.

In the winemaking process, tannins may take on a near-sweet or even sweet note depending on the type of wood that was used and how that wood was toasted. Later, as wine matures, even the near-searing tannins of some young wines can take on a sweetness as the various polymers of the wine come together to form a coherent whole.

As to velvet, like marble (I have indeed tasted Michelangelo's David) or flinty minerals have no taste whatsoever. They can and often do, however, impart "taste sensations", that is to say the illusion of tastes based on our past experiences that trigger similar memories. As a small experiment, touch first a piece of silk to your tongue (being sure the tongue is damp) and then, after a few moments, a piece of velvet. No tastes but indeed different taste sensations.



Best
Rogov

Hi Daniel, would you be so kind as to explain how the objective term (or should I say pejorative?) sweet tannin be more acceptable than the term noble tannin ? I will right away acknowledge that it wasn't you who had a problem with the latter term, but some did, and since you are the wordsmith that you are I thought I might ask you to do the 'splaining.

Bob, Hi......

No problem in the explanation. Whereas the descriptor "sweet" has both quantifiable and interpretive qualities interpreted), the term "noble" actually says nothing descriptive about tannins. I'll go along with the term "noble varieties" because those grapes do have a certain lineage and that has a specific value as applied to wine, but I can find no possible use for the term noble when applied to tannins.

Best
Rogov

I'll admit that I like to taste things to, Rogov. Usually in a wine context though.

Hoke, Hi...

I recall some years ago writing a tasting note about a Chablis in which instead of the usual "flinty minerals", I wrote about a gun-metal sensation. By pure chance I was doing military reserve duty on the day the article appeared. My commanding officer, quite a high ranking person, called me into his office and asked just "how in the hell was he supposed to know what gun metal tasted like". Neither of us was under arms that day but I simply called in one of the passing soldiers, relieved him of his M16 rifle and told my boss (Doobie his nickname) to lick the barrel.

Like the cop in Florence, Doobie thought I was crazy but he did as I suggested. His eyes lit up happily as my meaning dawned on him. He did, however, then procede to tell me get the #^%@ out of his office. I suspect that the poor soldier whose rifle was used is still convinced that the two of us were nutty as fruitcakes.

Best
Rogov

Bob, Hi......

No problem in the explanation. Whereas the descriptor "sweet" has both quantifiable and interpretive qualities interpreted), the term "noble" actually says nothing descriptive about tannins. I'll go along with the term "noble varieties" because those grapes do have a certain lineage and that has a specific value as applied to wine, but I can find no possible use for the term noble when applied to tannins.

Best
Rogov

Daniel, I find myself in agreement with you regarding a quantifiable identity of the sobriquet Noble as applied to a taste (or mouth feel) sensation. However, I rather (in my own mind) doubt the ability of any tannin to taste sweet. RS? sure, fruit? right on. cane sugar? sure that too. I would even agree with several other additions that would cause a sweetness in a wine. (mostly illegal) I do though doubt that it could realistically be attributed to the tannins, regardless their origin. But heck, I drink wine for the enjoyment and not as a way of life, or a livelihood so what do I know?

As to velvet, like marble (I have indeed tasted Michelangelo's David) or flinty minerals have no taste whatsoever.

Marble has no taste, however I think you may have experienced the cool sensation of the smooth, polished, marble rock. True flint (there are several synonyms - jasper, chert) is a microcrystalline quartz, ie silicon dioxide and gives off a noticeable gunflint smell and often sparks when struck with a metal hammer (Geology 101). As well as used for making fire and in guns, these hard mirocrystalline quartzes were also used early civilisations for tools and weapons.

If you wash a piece of flint rock clean with neutral water, so it has no soil, dirt, plant matter or smells from people's hands on it, let it dry naturally, then taste it, it will be tasteless but will be cool/cold, like the marble. I've been wondering, however, if you taste a piece of flint immediately after it has been struck with a hammer, if that gunflint character is transferred to the tastebuds. Note made to experiment.

Flint that people use to make fire (as we see in Survivor) is not actually from the rock but an artificial flint made from iron, cerium, magnesium and other heavy metals. It is called ferrocerium but has other names like 'firestarter' and 'metal match'.

I understand flint/flinty in a wine description, but I really don't understand 'flinty minerals' - perhaps they are minerals from the towns of Flint in Michigan and Wales.

Cheers,
Sue

Jeff, Hi.....

In addition to properties that we describe as textural, especially as related to astringency), tannins in their purest form (bite down on the pips of a Tannat or Cabernet Sauvignon grape) do have a flavor and that flavor is one of bitterness. Tannins can, however be influenced by other factors, first in the winemaking process and second in the aging process.

In the winemaking process, tannins may take on a near-sweet or even sweet note depending on the type of wood that was used and how that wood was toasted. Later, as wine matures, even the near-searing tannins of some young wines can take on a sweetness as the various polymers of the wine come together to form a coherent whole.

As to velvet, like marble (I have indeed tasted Michelangelo's David) or flinty minerals have no taste whatsoever. They can and often do, however, impart "taste sensations", that is to say the illusion of tastes based on our past experiences that trigger similar memories. As a small experiment, touch first a piece of silk to your tongue (being sure the tongue is damp) and then, after a few moments, a piece of velvet. No tastes but indeed different taste sensations.

Thanks Daniel for the explanation. It's the taste "impressions" that you mention that makes the most sense to me. That's kind of what I was steering at with confusion of the term sweet tannins - can tannins literally be "tasted" as sweet or is it more a case where they can just have an ability to leave an impression that they are, themselves, sweet? My guess is that the latter is more of what's going on but again I could be wrong. Plus, since tannins do portray a "bitterness" by nature (if you physically eat a seed/skins, how could they ever, in their natural form, be tasted as "sweet"? Furthermore, a term like sweet tannins makes me wonder that if that is a possible and real idea (that you can taste tannins in terms of "flavor" or sweet vs salty etc) then how does one confidently know that any sweet sensations aren't simply coming from the wine itself (liquid) or perhaps an impression from the alcohol, secondary aging complexities etc? I do see what you're saying but it just strikes me odd that tannins (or really any texture oriented element) can be described as a "taste" term. Inversely, it would be like saying the
flavor sensation of a steak is "velvety". This obviously sounds puzzling since "velvety" isn't even a flavor term, it's a texture/tactile one...

Jeff


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Rogov[/quote]

No one could do it as good as Daniel, but besides the wine making process and the wine’s aging influencing tannin (or altering its “flavor” or texture), what one puts into one’s mouth prior to sipping a very tannic red wine can also alter one’s perception of the tannin (both flavor-wise and texture-wise).
Jeff in the enjoyment of food I think taste and texture go hand in hand. Something that taste and smells good and goes down velvety smooth is a pleasure to eat or drink. On the other-hand it could smell good and even taste good, but if in a textural content it goes down harsh and coarse it becomes unpleasant to eat or drink.

Salute

No one could do it as good as Daniel, but besides the wine making process and the wine’s aging influencing tannin (or altering its “flavor” or texture), what one puts into one’s mouth prior to sipping a very tannic red wine can also alter one’s perception of the tannin (both flavor-wise and texture-wise).
Jeff in the enjoyment of food I think taste and texture go hand in hand. Something that taste and smells good and goes down velvety smooth is a pleasure to eat or drink. On the other-hand it could smell good and even taste good, but if in a textural content it goes down harsh and coarse it becomes unpleasant to eat or drink.

Salute

Hi victor,

I think I agree with all that except for maybe the very last part. I do agree that nothing is pleasant to eat or drink if it is harsh when actually swallowed and aftertasted however in the case of (particularly) red wines, I never find harshness to be a result of too much texture/dominance of the tannins. For me harshness in red wines is usually a result of a touch more alcohol % than I prefer or simply a balance/flavor profile that makes it unpleasant (too green, watery, herbal and vegetal rather than chocolately, dark, earthy). I'd say it's somewhat like my preference for, say, extra hard kettle cooked potato chips rather than the delicate, lightweight ones. I personally like the CRRUUNNNCH, substantial-ness and pure texture of the super hard chips and once you experience the pleasure and then don't have it, the light chips just taste (and mostly feel) something less than. I'm not saying this preference of mine is "right" or normal for most true wine lovers. It probably isn't. But it's what I gravitate to most...

Aside from that I definitely agree that flavor and tastes can be influenced by what you smell, eat, drink beforehand etc. That's why I'm assuming that a phrase such as " sweet tannins" is not so much literal but more an impression statement, actually caused by secondary factors. I just don't see otherwise how one could precisely discern a sweetness in tannins alone, especially when I still believe them to a texture component anyways and not something like, say, orange juice which you CAN make sweet vs salty flavor judgements on.

Jeff

If you wash a piece of flint rock clean with neutral water, so it has no soil, dirt, plant matter or smells from people's hands on it, let it dry naturally, then taste it, it will be tasteless but will be cool/cold, like the marble. I've been wondering, however, if you taste a piece of flint immediately after it has been struck with a hammer, if that gunflint character is transferred to the tastebuds. Note made to experiment.

I have done this experiment, and the answer is a clear yes.

Greetings from Sweden / Fredrik L

Fredrik, Hi

Any mineral, completely clean and completely dry will impart no taste or scent sensation whatsoever without the presence of some moisture. The only trick is making sure that the tongue is wet when it touches the object in question. At that point there will be huge differences between the "taste" say between flint, granite, gun metal, stainless steel, etc, etc

Best
Rogov

Fredrik, Hi

Any mineral, completely clean and completely dry will impart no taste or scent sensation whatsoever without the presence of some moisture. The only trick is making sure that the tongue is wet when it touches the object in question. At that point there will be huge differences between the "taste" say between flint, granite, gun metal, stainless steel, etc, etc

Best
Rogov

Hi Daniel,

There are minerals that do have taste and even on a dry tongue. Halite is probably the tastiest (NaCl). However I've just licked a corundum (Al2O3, var. saphhire) and it has no taste at all with a wet tongue.

There are also some very stinky minerals that don't need water. Sulphur (S) is probably the stinkiest one.

Cheers,
Sue

Hi Daniel,
the only thing I said was that flint struck with a hammer has a distinct taste.

And if you are walking around with a sand paper tongue: pull a cork, have some wine and THEN lick marble!

Greetings from Sweden / Fredrik L

Sorry, ladies and gentlemen, but returning to Biology 101, no substance known can impart a taste without the presence of water or another liquid (saliva most frequently in the case of taste). Halite (NaCl or, if we prefer, the mineral version of rock salt), Sulfur, nada, nothing, de rien, pas de tout, clum, efes in the way taste with no water..

True, some elements and compounds (e.g. sulfur dioxide, perfumes, petrol) give off an aroma even in the non presence of water and those aromas pass on a sensation of but not true taste.

Ye faithful curmudgeon waiting for one of the biologists among us to chime in.

Best
Rogov

Sorry, ladies and gentlemen, but returning to Biology 101, no substance known can impart a taste without the presence of water or another liquid (saliva most frequently in the case of taste).

Hi Daniel,
I remember that from biology class, too, but does it really matter? Who wants to know what things taste like without saliva? When we discuss taste from a human point of view, the inclusion of saliva is a gimme, right?

Greetings from Sweden / Fredrik L

Fredrik, Hi.....

Indeed the usual mode of operation is with the presence of saliva but there are sevrral things that can cause the mouth to go completely dry. Depending on the individual of course - extreme fear or anxiety, a high fever under certain circumstances, etc.

Artificially best way to emulate that dryness is to first cut a lemon in half, to lick the lemon, to wait a few seconds and then to dry the tongue with paper toweling (such as used in a kitchen). Not fully effective but with taste experiments works pretty well.

Best
Rogov

There has been no mention of the fact that most of the tannins in red wines come from the skins (not the pips). As the skins mature, the nature and bitterness of tannins change perceptibly and mellow, giving an impression of sweetness.

Go through a red grape vineyard soon after veraison and slip the skin off of the pulp and then chew just the skin; you'll get a bitter, mouth-puckering sensation with absolutely no sweetness or flavor. Go through that same vineyard 45-60 days later at harvest time and do the same thing; this time the skin imparts a sweet, sandy graininess with some astringency (tartness) rather than pure bitterness.

The length of maceration and then treatment of the must after pressing can also alter the mouth-feel of the finished wine, and the perception of tannins; for example, stirring of the lees on a bi-weekly basis (either red or white) while the wine ages in barrels can enrich the wine with a fatter, more glycerin texture, which ameliorates the thinness and angularity of the tannins.

marco

There has been no mention of the fact that most of the tannins in red wines come from the skins (not the pips). As the skins mature, the nature and bitterness of tannins change perceptibly and mellow, giving an impression of sweetness.

Go through a red grape vineyard soon after veraison and slip the skin off of the pulp and then chew just the skin; you'll get a bitter, mouth-puckering sensation with absolutely no sweetness or flavor. Go through that same vineyard 45-60 days later at harvest time and do the same thing; this time the skin imparts a sweet, sandy graininess with some astringency (tartness) rather than pure bitterness.

The length of maceration and then treatment of the must after pressing can also alter the mouth-feel of the finished wine, and the perception of tannins; for example, stirring of the lees on a bi-weekly basis (either red or white) while the wine ages in barrels can enrich the wine with a fatter, more glycerin texture, which ameliorates the thinness and angularity of the tannins.

marco

I think this last paragraph makes perfect sense and probably fully explains what is going on when the term "sweet tannins" is used - that it is more just an impression statement. That I could see/believe.

For some reason, when I see the phrase used it always strikes me as if the taster is trying to specifically say that they are discerning an obvious sweetness in the tannins alone (and as a result are essentially saying that it is something that they could confidently claim wasn't coming from any other secondary, or even primary, components of the wine). But I'm guessing it's just an impression statement in which case I'm just over-thinking too literally about the phrase...

Jeff

Jeff, there's the problem, isn't it: the connotation of what "sweet" means.

Or to loosely quote one of my favorite lines from one of my favorite movies: " I don't think that word means what you think it means."

All words, but especially certain words, can carry certain connotations for people, and conversely not carry much connotation for other people.

To most folks I would imagine "sweet" simply means "presence of sweetness, i.e., sugary". That's not necessarily what it means to me, and definitely not what it means to me in a wine sense.

Every notice a person drinking a white wine, a wine that you know is bone dry, and saying it tastes sweet? I have. Frequently. And that's because the person's brain is fooled into thinking there is sweetness----presence of sugar----when there is none. It's the fruit expression that's hitting the palate and the brain, and that's interpreted as sweetness through association.

That's how I view the "sweet tannin" expression, as described in that paragraph you mentioned (and you're right, it is an eloquent description). It's not sugar sweet tannin, it's softer, less harsh, less biting, more pliant tannin, with less aggressive assault on the soft palate and gums.

And by the way, it's a fairly well known winemaking technique to add powdered grape tannins in small amounts to a finished wine when it's a bit harsh or edgy---it softens the tannic impact. For sweet tannins.