wine ordering question ... etiquette...

We went through a dozen or so wines at an offline last night. Two bottles were corked.

Other times we'll go months without hitting one, but believe me, they are out there and many go un-noted because people don't know what to look for or aren't confident enough to speak up.

I agree that knowledge of wine is not necessarily associated with TCA sensitivity. I've been to tastings (including trade tastings) where distributor rep blithely poured horrendously corked wines.

Me too. In the case of reps, I attribute it to laziness or gross ignorance. Irrespective of how sensitive they are to TCA, they should at least know how their own wines should taste! They have no excuse IMO.

I've sent 3 bottles back in restaurants in the last maybe 5 years. In each case the difference with the new bottles was dramatic. Most recent here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6032&p=47404&hilit=blue+hill+stone+barns#p47404

I'm more sensitive to TCA than you are (I think), Dale, and I end up sending back about 1 of every 10-15 bottles that we order in a restaurant. I know of some people who ascribe any unpleasant aspect of a wine as cork taint, but that number is dwarfed by those who are either ignorant of or insensitive to cork taint. Like you, I am fairly sure that the number of returned bottles in most restaurants far underrepresents the number of flawed bottles actually present.

Mark Lipton

We went through a dozen or so wines at an offline last night. Two bottles were corked.Other times we'll go months without hitting one, but believe me, they are out there and many go un-noted because people don't know what to look for or aren't confident enough to speak up.

Exactly.
At offlines where we have 10-12 wines, I'd guess offhand we average 60% of the time no corked bottles. 35% of the time one corked bottle, 5 % 2 corked bottles. That would be in line with about 5%, I'd think.
Of course, there are other bottles not up to snuff for other reasons.

Me too. In the case of reps, I attribute it to laziness or gross ignorance. Irrespective of how sensitive they are to TCA, they should at least know how their own wines should taste! They have no excuse IMO.

Plus if one knows one is insensitive, I'd be especially responsive to others' comments (or have a co-worker do a sniff). I remember once encountering a corked Barolo- I quietly, mentioned it to rep, he said "oh, someone else thought so to, I think it's the alcohol." Incredible!!!
I quietly mentioned to person in charge of tasting, he went over, took a sniff, winced, told rep to open a new bottle.

I'm more sensitive to TCA than you are (I think), Dale, and I end up sending back about 1 of every 10-15 bottles that we order in a restaurant. I know of some people who ascribe any unpleasant aspect of a wine as cork taint, but that number is dwarfed by those who are either ignorant of or insensitive to cork taint. Like you, I am fairly sure that the number of returned bottles in most restaurants far underrepresents the number of flawed bottles actually present.

I agree. My numbers are probably more like 1 in 25-30, but besides my comparative insensitivity that is skewed by a fair percentage of my wine ordering being at places where a sommelier does an initial sniff, so some problematic bottles are weeded out then.

I've sent 3 bottles back in restaurants in the last maybe 5 years. In each case the difference with the new bottles was dramatic. Most recent here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6032&p=47404&hilit=blue+hill+stone+barns#p47404

I'm more sensitive to TCA than you are (I think), Dale, and I end up sending back about 1 of every 10-15 bottles that we order in a restaurant. I know of some people who ascribe any unpleasant aspect of a wine as cork taint, but that number is dwarfed by those who are either ignorant of or insensitive to cork taint. Like you, I am fairly sure that the number of returned bottles in most restaurants far underrepresents the number of flawed bottles actually present.
Mark Lipton

Perhaps I am missing something but if restaurants consistently brought me wine that was corked up to 10% of the time I would stop using them. Any good restaurant serving quality wines should do much better than that or they are being dishonest.

On the other hand I completely agree with you that cork taint [and other faults e.g. VA] is often not dealt with by the customer at home or in a restaurant - not necessarily because people can't smell it but because they are often not familiar enough with wine faults generally or know that wine in particular or are simply not prepared to confront the issue and say something is odd or wrong.

There are many threads in wine forums where wine geeks argue that corked wine is just one of life's hazards and they wouldn't expect a retailer to take back or credit a corked bottle. Indeed I understand that many large retailers in the USA specifically state in their terms and conditions that they won't. Of course a retailer is not the same as a restaurant [enormously different mark-ups et al] but I suspect the mindset carries over and these are people who claim to know the difference.

I would certainly send back a corked bottle but frankly don't expect to have to in a good restaurant.

There are many threads in wine forums where wine geeks argue that corked wine is just one of life's hazards and they wouldn't expect a retailer to take back or credit a corked bottle. Indeed I understand that many large retailers in the USA specifically state in their terms and conditions that they won't.

That's like telling someone that just bought a car that they happened to get one that was a lemon - get over it!

There is all sorts of consumer legislation as well as old English law that still pertains in some jurisdictions that require any product to be at least reasonably fit for the purpose for which it is intended (in the case of wine, to be drunk). Failing this standard means that you have received no consideration for the money you handed over and are entitled to a refund. Whether or not a retailer can contract themselves out of that situation is a separate question.

Perhaps I am missing something but if restaurants consistently brought me wine that was corked up to 10% of the time I would stop using them. Any good restaurant serving quality wines should do much better than that or they are being dishonest.

Well, I believe Mark was including other faults besides TCA. But I think the difference in your numbers/positions (as I noted in earlier response to Mark) is also possibly related to where you are dining. I've only sent back one bottle in memory at an "upper end" restaurant (the Blue Hill episode I linked to -anyone can miss a borderline bottle). At top restaurants with a serious wine program, a sommelier or at least trained waiter will usually try (by smell) first. But at most US midlevel or family restaurants, the waiter/waitress brings bottle, opens, and pours- without any check. So one's experience of corkiness at those places would statistically be about the same as at home.

Perhaps I am missing something but if restaurants consistently brought me wine that was corked up to 10% of the time I would stop using them. Any good restaurant serving quality wines should do much better than that or they are being dishonest.

Nigel,
Perhaps we're talking at cross-purposes here. Those bottles I send back are opened at my table. How is the restaurant to know before opening whether the bottle is corked or not? If you're arguing that this reflects some lack of quality control in their wine selection process, that's news to me. Cork taint is hard to totally prevent (barring a switch to screwcap, crown cap or Vino-Lok) and very hard to detect without opening the bottle. And, like many other diseases, cork taint plays no favorites in my experience: I've had cork tainted Second Growth Bordeaux and Grand Cru Burgundy.

There are many threads in wine forums where wine geeks argue that corked wine is just one of life's hazards and they wouldn't expect a retailer to take back or credit a corked bottle. Indeed I understand that many large retailers in the USA specifically state in their terms and conditions that they won't. Of course a retailer is not the same as a restaurant [enormously different mark-ups et al] but I suspect the mindset carries over and these are people who claim to know the difference.

That's just silly. Most retailers I'm aware of here in the US take back corked bottles with no hesitation, as they can get their own money back from distributor and so on up the line. The one exception is older bottles that were either obtained at auction (sold "as is") or that were cellared before opening. In those cases, the retailer cannot easily reclaim their own investment, even if one can prove that they were the source of the wine.

Mark Lipton

I've sent 3 bottles back in restaurants in the last maybe 5 years. In each case the difference with the new bottles was dramatic. Most recent here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6032&p=47404&hilit=blue+hill+stone+barns#p47404

I'm more sensitive to TCA than you are (I think), Dale, and I end up sending back about 1 of every 10-15 bottles that we order in a restaurant. I know of some people who ascribe any unpleasant aspect of a wine as cork taint, but that number is dwarfed by those who are either ignorant of or insensitive to cork taint. Like you, I am fairly sure that the number of returned bottles in most restaurants far underrepresents the number of flawed bottles actually present.
Mark Lipton

Perhaps I am missing something but if restaurants consistently brought me wine that was corked up to 10% of the time I would stop using them. Any good restaurant serving quality wines should do much better than that or they are being dishonest.

On the other hand I completely agree with you that cork taint [and other faults e.g. VA] is often not dealt with by the customer at home or in a restaurant - not necessarily because people can't smell it but because they are often not familiar enough with wine faults generally or know that wine in particular or are simply not prepared to confront the issue and say something is odd or wrong.

There are many threads in wine forums where wine geeks argue that corked wine is just one of life's hazards and they wouldn't expect a retailer to take back or credit a corked bottle. Indeed I understand that many large retailers in the USA specifically state in their terms and conditions that they won't. Of course a retailer is not the same as a restaurant [enormously different mark-ups et al] but I suspect the mindset carries over and these are people who claim to know the difference.

I would certainly send back a corked bottle but frankly don't expect to have to in a good restaurant.

Nigel,

I believe you are ill-informed. Generally, USA retailers (and smart restaurateurs) don't argue with customers about tainted wine. Why should they? The distributor and producer makes good on the returns.

Also, I fail to see how tainted cork is a restaurant's fault. Can you explain?

Also, I fail to see how tainted cork is a restaurant's fault. Can you explain?

Perhaps that the restaurants Nigel goes to have sommeliers who would sniff the cork on opening and could generally detect TCA - thus he as the customer is generally relieved of the burden, as they'd get another bottle without even offering the corked bottle to taste.

Speculation on my part (and not something I experience on the whole in restaurants I go to).

regards

Ian

Perhaps I am missing something but if restaurants consistently brought me wine that was corked up to 10% of the time I would stop using them. Any good restaurant serving quality wines should do much better than that or they are being dishonest.

Nigel,
Perhaps we're talking at cross-purposes here. Those bottles I send back are opened at my table. How is the restaurant to know before opening whether the bottle is corked or not? If you're arguing that this reflects some lack of quality control in their wine selection process, that's news to me. Cork taint is hard to totally prevent (barring a switch to screwcap, crown cap or Vino-Lok) and very hard to detect without opening the bottle. And, like many other diseases, cork taint plays no favorites in my experience: I've had cork tainted Second Growth Bordeaux and Grand Cru Burgundy.

There are many threads in wine forums where wine geeks argue that corked wine is just one of life's hazards and they wouldn't expect a retailer to take back or credit a corked bottle. Indeed I understand that many large retailers in the USA specifically state in their terms and conditions that they won't. Of course a retailer is not the same as a restaurant [enormously different mark-ups et al] but I suspect the mindset carries over and these are people who claim to know the difference.

That's just silly. Most retailers I'm aware of here in the US take back corked bottles with no hesitation, as they can get their own money back from distributor and so on up the line. The one exception is older bottles that were either obtained at auction (sold "as is") or that were cellared before opening. In those cases, the retailer cannot easily reclaim their own investment, even if one can prove that they were the source of the wine.
Mark Lipton

Mark
Clearly cross purposes since I cannot remember the last time a bottle was opened at my table in a restaurant. My point is obviously nothing to do with a restaurant’s ability or lack of it to avoid buying potentially corked wine but what they do to prevent corked wine reaching the customer for tasting.
We choose a wine, usually but not always with a sommelier present, he or a waiter brings the bottle which I look at and agree it is what was ordered. It is then taken away, opened and smelled and tasted if necessary before it is returned to an adjacent serving table or a free standing ice bucket by our table if appropriate.
Obviously a restaurant [anyone] cannot know a bottle is corked until it is opened. However I expect a good restaurant to check a bottle, having opened it, before it is offered for inspection. All I am saying is that a 10% failure rate is not acceptable and any significant failure would be cause for complaint. We would not return to a restaurant where we had to complain on a regular basis.

I am also happy to admit that my failure rate at home is less than 10%. Perhaps I am lucky or maybe, as I said earlier, somewhat sloppy.

As regards the refusal of US retailers to take back any opened bottle [corked faults et al], silly or otherwise, I can assure you that US wine forums are full of reports of major retailers having that in their terms and conditions AND many posters saying that they accept corked wine as just one of those hazards of buying wine.

I have always found it odd [I participate in 5 US wine forums] that a culture well schooled in litigation and matters of the law would accept a situation where a sale of something unfit for purpose could be so tolerated. I should say there are some in the UK who feel the same.
By the way since a corked wine has nothing to do with age why should that have anything to do with whether retailers accept they have sold a wine that was unfit for purpose other than they might have a greater problem than with a younger wine. The customer is just as blameless in both cases as long as he is prepared to provide the bottle, most of the wine and the cork.

[quote
Nigel,

I believe you are ill-informed. Generally, USA retailers (and smart restaurateurs) don't argue with customers about tainted wine. Why should they? The distributor and producer makes good on the returns.

Also, I fail to see how tainted cork is a restaurant's fault. Can you explain?

Thomas I will try

All I can say is that I have participated in many threads in many US forums where American posters have argued over this very issue and where either the distributor and or producer is said to ignore or refuse the responsibility [more terms and conditions] or more simply the retailer has it clearly stated in his terms and conditions that no opened bottle will be accepted as a return.

Of course a tainted cork is not a restaurant's creation [or a retailer's or even a producer's] but it is their responsibility. It certainly isn’t the customer’s.

If they know what they are doing it should be perfectly possible for a restaurant to stop a tainted wine being offered to a customer by having the necessary procedure in place to inspect the open bottle before offering the first pour.

I accept that such procedures require staff training and cost money and some restaurants don't have them. I just wouldn’t keep going to restaurants where I had to complain about the wine up to 10% of the time.