Does riesling require sugar to age well?

Lol I red it wrong, Australia and Austria is almost the same anyway......

a couple of things no one has mentioned.

1. the presence of any sugar will, over time, create a maillard(sp) reaction. sugar does age nicely because of this.

2. sulphur is a major help to aging and is added much more copiusly to white wine than to red - esp. in europe.

a couple of things no one has mentioned.


2. sulphur is a major help to aging and is added much more copiusly to white wine than to red - esp. in europe.

David,

what is the basis of the 'esp. in Europe' part?

David,

what is the basis of the 'esp. in Europe' part?

Yes.

Also interesting to see that there is not much of a no-sulphur movement in the US whereas it is quite established in France and spreading elsewhere on the Continent.

there is actually a decent size 'no sulphur' movement in the US but it is mainly among local wineries with little or no technical training, and even less experience with the flavor of traditionally sound wines from around the world. for those who like 'mature' wines, no sulphur may not be much of a problem; but the shelf life is extremely limited.

i base the assertion on the fact that when my group tastes wines (weekly) that show sulphur, they are (nearly) always european. older wines that are still light in color (a dead giveaway) are similarly nearly always european. since i am not very sensitive to sulphur, and prefer fresh wines anyway, this is not an impediment for me.

while i am not a winemaker, i attend technical sessions at meetings when i can. whenever wine flaws are discussed, the answer is always the same: "keep your sulphur levels up" and you won't have this problem. film yeast - which many people don't detect - is a major problem in the low or no sulphur movement but hardly anywhere else.

there is actually a decent size 'no sulphur' movement in the US but it is mainly among local wineries with little or no technical training, and even less experience with the flavor of traditionally sound wines from around the world..

Interesting. Any names?

FWIW, sometimes I wonder about these folks in France as well

David,

Since SO2's main job is to keep oxidation at bay, I'd guess that wines with a heavy dose of it may last long, but they may not take on much of the aging qualities of wines that slowly oxidize, which is probably why the wines you refer to seem fresh and colorless--high SO2 levels can strip wines of some color, and also give wines a metallic or flinty quality.

Me, I don't want to taste or smell SO2 in my wines, and that means a rigorous program in the winery to keep the levels un-intrusive.

Thomas wrote;
Since SO2's main job is to keep oxidation at bay….

I’ll have to disagree with you there Thomas, I believe that SO2’s main job is to keep microbe contamination at bay. Maybe during the crushing of the grapes and transferring or racking the wine is SO2 used mainly to keep oxidation at bay.

Salute

Thomas wrote;
Since SO2's main job is to keep oxidation at bay….

I’ll have to disagree with you there Thomas, I believe that SO2’s main job is to keep microbe contamination at bay. Maybe during the crushing of the grapes and transferring or racking the wine is SO2 used mainly to keep oxidation at bay.

Salute

Victor,

If you have to use SO2 in finished wine to keep microbial spoilage at bay, you are likely in the realm of having to use too much. SO2 should be a minimum protection device. Optimum pH (3.2--3.6) and good acidity/tannin should be the goal.

Certainly there are strains of flor yeast (or as David C calls them “film yeast”) and bacteria that could call wine “home”.

Salute

Certainly there are strains of flor yeast (or as David C calls them “film yeast”) and bacteria that could call wine “home”.

Salute

Victor,

The best way to fend off film yeast is to keep wines topped up--they thrive on oxygen. Quite often, good winemaking practices curtails the need for chemistry. But if you do need to treat a wine, as I said, you may have to add more SO2 than generally necessary (generally, you can use 20 ppm free in stable, dry wines with optimum pH).

Get film yeast problems (or other microbials) in a wine that went through ml, is above 3.6 pH, and you may certainly have to use SO2 as an anti-microbial, beyond 40 ppm free. I wouldn't think I'd like that wine at all, and I'd probably hate the whiff of SO2 that might come shooting out at my nose.

In my winemaking career, I avoided SO2 as an anti-microbial simply because of the tendency for over using it--that's the real headache caused by SO2.

...
i base the assertion on the fact that when my group tastes wines (weekly) that show sulphur, they are (nearly) always european. older wines that are still light in color (a dead giveaway) are similarly nearly always european. since i am not very sensitive to sulphur, and prefer fresh wines anyway, this is not an impediment for me.

while i am not a winemaker, i attend technical sessions at meetings when i can. whenever wine flaws are discussed, the answer is always the same: "keep your sulphur levels up" and you won't have this problem. film yeast - which many people don't detect - is a major problem in the low or no sulphur movement but hardly anywhere else.

By 'sulphur' I take it you mean SO2?

There is a broad middle ground between finished wines that are 'sans souffre' and those that show overt SO2. Other than very low pH whites such as the German classics, I find very few rested, bottled wines from reputable producers that show SO2 these days; maybe your threshold is way lower than mine.

I tasted many hundreds of wines at Vinitaly this year, for example, many of them very recently bottled and not yet released, and I can't think of a single example that showed overt SO2. Five years ago things were different.

I would imagine that brett is a much larger problem in wines bottled with low free SO2 than 'film yeast,' as Thomas pointed out.

Lighter color in older wines is not a 'dead giveaway' for excess SO2. Wine can be bleached by excess SO2; it can also be light in color in the first place. Many European wines are lighter in color than New World examples of the same varieties, thank God.

...
i base the assertion on the fact that when my group tastes wines (weekly) that show sulphur, they are (nearly) always european. older wines that are still light in color (a dead giveaway) are similarly nearly always european. since i am not very sensitive to sulphur, and prefer fresh wines anyway, this is not an impediment for me.

while i am not a winemaker, i attend technical sessions at meetings when i can. whenever wine flaws are discussed, the answer is always the same: "keep your sulphur levels up" and you won't have this problem. film yeast - which many people don't detect - is a major problem in the low or no sulphur movement but hardly anywhere else.

By 'sulphur' I take it you mean SO2?

There is a broad middle ground between finished wines that are 'sans souffre' and those that show overt SO2. Other than very low pH whites such as the German classics, I find very few rested, bottled wines from reputable producers that show SO2 these days; maybe your threshold is way lower than mine.

I tasted many hundreds of wines at Vinitaly this year, for example, many of them very recently bottled and not yet released, and I can't think of a single example that showed overt SO2. Five years ago things were different.

I would imagine that brett is a much larger problem in wines bottled with low free SO2 than 'film yeast,' as Thomas pointed out.

Lighter color in older wines is not a 'dead giveaway' for excess SO2. Wine can be bleached by excess SO2; it can also be light in color in the first place. Many European wines are lighter in color than New World examples of the same varieties, thank God.

Yes, deeper intensity and concentration, usually more color, but that's for reds.

In whites, like Riesling, deeper color in a young wine could mean a few things, not the least of which is disease on the vine. But it's more likely to mean excess exposure to oxygen or it could mean minimal SO2 additions, or it could mean both, which could mean a different sort of disaster than disease on the vine!

Isn't wine so simple?

Thanks Thomas!

Thomas wrote:
Isn't wine so simple?

Thank God it isn’t, otherwise it would be just another “dull” drink and it wouldn’t be talked about so much.

Salute