Let's talk about Oak

will the people posting here forget about oak barrels, please. almost the only way that oak flavors get into wine today is by chips or stavs.

Besides the oak barrel being the ideal shipping “container”, then maybe the ideal “flavoring” storage container, somewhere down the line it became obvious or apparent that that the oak barrel was the ideal storage container (as long as its kept topped up) for the wine to undergo its "maturing” process before bottling.

Salute

will the people posting here forget about oak barrels, please. almost the only way that oak flavors get into wine today is by chips or stavs.

Possibly true for a certain percentage of wines costing under $10, but not true above that! You can't possibly believe that the oak flavor in, for example, white burgundy grand crus and premier crus and all the Bordeaux grand crus comes from chips?

[Robin Garr]

Well said, Dale. I came to this thread a little late and was contemplating some responses, but I think you pretty much covered what I would have said. Thanks for saving me the typing time!

I'm less quercophobic than most posting in this thread, though I'd say I'm definitely on the less oak end of the spectrum of all wine drinkers. I don't like wines where the oak flavors stick out, but a little hint doesn't bother me- especially in younger wines. I mean, Haut-Brion uses 80% new oak, and I'll happily drink young or old.
Drinking only wines with no new oak would eliminate most of the great Cote d'Or Burgundies (red or white) and virtually all of the classified Bordeaux. Even in Chablis, where people think of no-oak Chardonnay, R&V Dauvissat and Raveneau use some new oak, and one can sometimes get a little vanilla.
For me there is no set answer, other than I don't like wines where oak is the first thing one notices.

[Robin Garr]

That will be 9 cents, please.

And 9¢ well spent! Thanks, Mary.

of course i don't mean burgundy or bordeaux; but they account for a very small portion of the oaky wines - the vast majority of which are new world. i believe people would be shocked at the number of wines over $10 that receive oak chip or stave treatment.

i believe people would be shocked at the number of wines over $10 that receive oak chip or stave treatment.

While this may be, sadly, entirely true, with all due respect, you have no way of knowing the proportion. I just don't see the point of calling a halt to this discussion about oak barrels ("will the people posting here forget about oak barrels, please") with a sweeping statement ("almost the only way that oak flavors get into wine today is by chips or stavs") that you cannot support (i.e., with statistical data), even if you later qualify the statement as referring only to new world oaky wines, which few participants in this discussion even care about.

vanilla is one of the less common aspects of oak - usually only from very expensive barrels with medium plus toast.

And I think you are more likely to get vanilla from American oak than French aren't you?

Not my experience.
French, vanilla.
American, dill.
Best, Jim

You need to drink some old-time Rioja, Jim. That vanilla perfume comes only from carefully selected American oak. And I do mean carefully selected--there are still Rioja bodegas that send scouts to Pennsylvania and Ohio looking for oak; they buy it and bring it back to Spain, where they have their own cooperage.

You need to drink some old-time Rioja, Jim. That vanilla perfume comes only from carefully selected American oak. And I do mean carefully selected--there are still Rioja bodegas that send scouts to Pennsylvania and Ohio looking for oak; they buy it and bring it back to Spain, where they have their own cooperage.

There are certainly some wines where the nature of the oak - whether through different toasting or barrel construction or what - is not as evident. Rioja is certainly one and another I have often noted is Beaulieu Vineyards, which I believe uses American oak exclusively, but I have almost always failed to detect it as such in blind tastings. Maybe that is partly because the wines I'm tasting are usually older vintages...?

You need to drink some old-time Rioja, Jim. That vanilla perfume comes only from carefully selected American oak. And I do mean carefully selected--there are still Rioja bodegas that send scouts to Pennsylvania and Ohio looking for oak; they buy it and bring it back to Spain, where they have their own cooperage.

There are certainly some wines where the nature of the oak - whether through different toasting or barrel construction or what - is not as evident. Rioja is certainly one and another I have often noted is Beaulieu Vineyards, which I believe uses American oak exclusively, but I have almost always failed to detect it as such in blind tastings. Maybe that is partly because the wines I'm tasting are usually older vintages...?

I'm not a fan of the kind of vanilla often found in American oak and have, therefore, generally shied away from Rioja, where it seems to stand out for me. Perhaps because I have a particular sensitivity to it. I much prefer tempranillos from Ribera del Duero, where the tendency to use French oak seems greater, at least at the non-Crianza level.

will the people posting here forget about oak barrels, please. almost the only way that oak flavors get into wine today is by chips or stavs.

David, I'm sorry, but that is just not true!

There's nuggets, chunks, pellets----pretty much every form and size of oak you can think of. There's even my personal favorite, sawdust.

I'm in agreement with Jim: French-Vanilla, American-Dill.

I would alter it slightly though, by adding American-coconut/dill.

If you have the opportunity to talk to oak providers and oak users, and take a look at the aroma/flavor wheels, it is pretty much standard to classify French oak barrels with the characteristics of vanilla/caramel (and yes, Virginia, the degree of toasting strongly influences that perception), whereas the two most commonly used descriptors for American oak are dill and coconut.

That's not a quality statement, by the way. Simply a reflection of what trained people commonly find in various types of oak-treated wines.

I don't think it's too hard to pick out oak flavors and aromas, as some others have pointed out. The normal list would include:

American oak: dill, vanilla, coconut (think of suntan lotion)
French oak: vanilla, nutmeg, cinnamon, milk chocolate

On the palate, both kinds show a particular kind of fine tannin that to me often shows up at the front of the mouth. Note that many of these flavors can occur in certain wines naturally, eg Serralunga Barolo has baker's chocolate with no new wood.

Eastern European oaks are said to have distinct flavors, but in my experience they are usually made into larger barrels, so the effect is less obvious.

First, a big thank you to all of you who resoponded to my query. Your words were thoughtful, well chosen, and informative. If nothing else, I learned a new word - "Quercus" - and a made-up derivative - "quercophobic." Just to pursue one more thought on this topic...when the use of things like oak chips, pellets, and the like were mentioned, it was pretty clear there is fairly universal disapproval of these modern "manipulative" techniques for "seasoning" wines, at least on this forum. Certainly the traditionalist, purist, biodynamic, Michael Pollan, part of me (and that's a big part) agrees that these techniques sound like cheap short cuts - spam in place of prosciutto as it were. But the free-thinker in me wonders...used with some proper restraint, are these not just more tools in a wine makers tool box? Are we being too close-minded about this? I'm just askin....

Bob, I considered making a smart a$$ reply and say that oak makes very good flooring, but decided I wouldn't. The short version of my thoughts is that it adds good stuff to wine when it is used judiciously, and bad stuff when it isn't. I might write a thousand words and it would still boil down to the above.

Fair enough, but can chips or pellets be used judiciously?

Fair enough, but can chips or pellets be used judiciously?

Bob, I don't know the answer, but I bet with trial and error they can be.

thanks hoke; i was trying to be gentle with the 'oak virgins'. from one of the responses i was clearly not gentle enough.

nevertheless, there is something in me that loves a wonderfully integrated oaky white burgundy with lots of acid. call me crazy. but other than that i don't see any reason for it except to make dull wine even more dull.

Fair enough, but can chips or pellets be used judiciously?

Bob, I don't know the answer, but I bet with trial and error they can be.

Bob [Henrick], you're right.

Some folks would be mighty surprised at just how long oak variants have been in constant use. And they might be surprised which wines they are in.

And Bob [Hower], yes, they can be used judiciously. The art is partly in the making, and partly in the blending. With the lab in between those two parts.

thanks hoke; i was trying to be gentle with the 'oak virgins'. from one of the responses i was clearly not gentle enough.

nevertheless, there is something in me that loves a wonderfully integrated oaky white burgundy with lots of acid. call me crazy. but other than that i don't see any reason for it except to make dull wine even more dull.

I share that love as resolutely as you, David. But I can see (and taste) many other reasons/uses for oak in wine. And none of them are there to make dull wine even more dull.

You've already established that you don't mind/like oak. You just severely limit where you like oak. My parameters are broader than yours, thassall.

There are few things more pleasurable in life than when one has the opportunity to enjoy a wine at its absolute peak of perfection, where all the elements are in total harmony and balance. Had an experience like that not too long ago. 1986 Caymus SS Cabernet Sauvignon. There was oak there. It did not dull anything; it was one element of the song being sung. And the song was perfect in every note. Had the oak not been there as one of the components, the wine would have been less than it was.

American Oak......whiskey barrel flavor.....doesn't anyone else taste it too?

Fair enough, but can chips or pellets be used judiciously?

Bob, I don't know the answer, but I bet with trial and error they can be.

Bob [Henrick], you're right.

Some folks would be mighty surprised at just how long oak variants have been in constant use. And they might be surprised which wines they are in.

And Bob [Hower], yes, they can be used judiciously. The art is partly in the making, and partly in the blending. With the lab in between those two parts.

A major part is micro-oxygenation.

American Oak......whiskey barrel flavor.....doesn't anyone else taste it too?

You'll have to be a little more giving, Michael. As in, what do you mean by whiskey barrel flavor?

Are you saying the barrel makes the wine taste like whiskey? Or that there is a flavor in the wine that is reminiscent of whiskey? Or that there is an element in wine that reminds you of a whiskey barrel? And what does a whiskey barrel flavor smell or taste like?

The difference, which I'm sure you know, between almost all whiskey barrels and wine barrels is that the whiskey barrels are charred instead of toasted. I suppose a heavy toast---a really heavy toast---could bring out something like a whiskey flavor. If you're actually smelling distinct whiskey notes, you're probably more likely picking up aldehydes: certain aldehydes are identified by their whiskey-like characteristics.

May be the barrel; may be something else.

A major part is micro-oxygenation.

Yeah, sometimes (even frequently). But not always. Micro-ox is becoming a bigger and bigger part of winemaking technique these days, often in the low-priced wine tiers, sometimes in the higher-priced. And yes, a lot of the non-barrel oaked wines are also micro-ox---it's part of the original technique popularized by the Aussies (what, you thought they were using new French oak barrels for Yellow Tail? )