Terry Theise on his love affair with Riesling

[Jenise]

Robin, I totally get your comparison to music that's too loud. I could put it that way, too. Mind you, I don't dislike reisling, I just prefer other things. Which is indicative of my overall palate: I'm a French/Mediterranean cook. I love herbs and sauces and lots of vegetables. I love reisling with Thai food, but guess what: I prefer the not-sweet complexity of Chinese food to the hot-and-sweet spice of Thai. My taste in wine pretty much follows my taste in food.

I can understand that Riesling's aromatic profile is not what Robin and Jenise like best but I am puzzled that both refer obliquely to sweetness as a characteristic. A lot of Riesling, particularly German, is indeed sweet and that is what many Riesling lovers like, but a lot is dry too, especially in Austria and Australia, and lately the German preference has swung in that direction. It is true that "dry" Riesling is rarely bone dry in the manner of Muscadet but, then, neither is Chardonnay.

I am contemplating selling off quite a few bottles of sweet(ish) German Riesling and replacing them with "dry", GGs and the like.

[Jenise]

I can understand that Riesling's aromatic profile is not what Robin and Jenise like best but I am puzzled that both refer obliquely to sweetness as a characteristic. A lot of Riesling, particularly German, is indeed sweet and that is what many Riesling lovers like, but a lot is dry too, especially in Austria and Australia, and lately the German preference has swung in that direction. It is true that "dry" Riesling is rarely bone dry in the manner of Muscadet but, then, neither is Chardonnay.

While I fully understand what you say, Tim, but when I think of Riesling I think of 'sweet'. And I am someone with no sweet tooth whatsoever. 'Off-dry' to me IS sweet, so there's not a lot of room in my memory for the few drier versions I've had and enjoyed. Let alone 'better' Rieslings or dry Austrian and Australian Rieslings, of which there's little around in this neck of the woods. So I'm not overlooking them so much as they're not there to look at. Which only explains why I don't add to what I have--it doesn't address why overall I'm not more attracted to what I do have.

Perhaps there's some rule of opposites at work here. David loves Riesling but historically doesn't tolerate Sauvignon Blanc. I do tolerate Riesling, but no question I don't love it where I love Sauvignon Blanc--inarguably, it's my favorite white grape. I love the flavor period, but it doesn't hurt that a wide variety is readily available from all over the planet, so I can have a dozen or so different bottlings on hand at any one time. I do adore a constant variety of styles.

I also love Gruner Veltliner, Arneis, Albarino, Garganega and Chenin Blanc but there are too few around to raise any to 'favorite' status.

[David M. Bueker]

Well if you can't find Austrian Riesling then you are not going to have much luck finding good Gruner Veltliner.

[Jenise]

Well if you can't find Austrian Riesling then you are not going to have much luck finding good Gruner Veltliner.

There's actually more Gruner about. I am guessing the name has cache where a lot of people are just convinced they don't like Riesling, period.

[Robin Garr]

Well if you can't find Austrian Riesling then you are not going to have much luck finding good Gruner Veltliner.

There's actually more Gruner about. I am guessing the name has cache where a lot of people are just convinced they don't like Riesling, period.

I think that's generally true around the U.S. I can find at least a few Grüners around here - maybe not any Wachau Smaragds at any given time, maybe mostly larger producers like Huber, but still, a choice of a few. But Austrian Rieslings are much more hit-or-miss. This has changed in the last few years - well, maybe the last decade or two. I get a sense that there's more pressure on the top wines (not just tops in price but market interest) and larger shares are going to the largest cities. Or maybe to China? Dunno.

[David M. Bueker]

Mostly New York and San Francisco, plus some Asia (not just China).

[Robin Garr]

Mostly New York and San Francisco, plus some Asia (not just China).

Thank Bacchus for Chambers Street. I can't really cover most of my everyday drinking via mail order, though.

[Jenise]

Speaking of gruner, at Spago in Hawaii last week I ordered a Gruner to go with our dinner. They had an impressive nine on the wine list, including two Smaragds and several 10+ years in age. Bob's dish was more Asian and mine leaned more French, and the gruner struck me as a wine that would perfectly straddle both worlds. (Scored me some major points with the somm for that, I did.)

I also love Gruner Veltliner, Arneis, Albarino, Garganega and Chenin Blanc but there are too few around to raise any to 'favorite' status.

Chenin blanc is another grape whose wines, at least in the Loire valley, are rarely bone dry. Noël Pinguet, formerly boss at Huet, told me that his Vouvray "sec" sometimes had up to 12g/l of RS, but mouth-watering balancing acidity allows a subjectively dry impression overall. The German rule on "trocken" allows up to 9g/l of RS provided there is 7g/l, I think, of acidity and a sliding scale of both downwards.

Interestingly there has just been a thread on the UK wine pages worded something like "what grape variety do you dislike?" I can't recall anyone nominating Riesling but Chenin blanc, SB and Grüner Veltliner were there.

I'm with you on "off-dry". When I read that, I understand "sweet". CT, which should know better, describes even Loire moelleux and German auslesen as "off-dry" .

[David M. Bueker]

I'm with you on "off-dry". When I read that, I understand "sweet". CT, which should know better, describes even Loire moelleux and German auslesen as "off-dry" .

Checking my holdings in Cellar Tracker, I see the François Pinon Vouvray Moelleux shown as "sweet/dessert." Same for the Huet Moelleux wines.

Auslese is in there as off dry which is misleading, although that's likely because when some folks were first putting in the wines they started it that way, and Eric left it alone. So an unfortunate precedent was established.

"Off-dry" to me is the halbtrocken category and perhaps some feinherb wines. It can also be pradikat wines where the sweetness has dialed back with age. A 20 year old kabinett is often nearly dry.

Great discussion. Many here know my riesling affliction but I am also a big fan of dry whites from Languedoc, Spain and Portugal. White Grenache hit the spot last night actually .

Good Heavens! Just saw this thread. I thought everyone knew that Riesling was the King of white varietals. Chardonnay? Pshaw!

But really - in terms of subtlety and variety of style, as well as longevity, Riesling is hard to beat. If you don't like it, you don't like it, and you have my sympathy. I have more Riesling (both German and Alsatian) in my cellar than any other single white varietal.

[David M. Bueker]

Riesling still makes up 40% of my cellar, and by bottle count it is 3X over its next closest rival, Pinot Noir.

[Jenise]

Good Heavens! Just saw this thread. I thought everyone knew that Riesling was the King of white varietals. Chardonnay? Pshaw!

But really - in terms of subtlety and variety of style, as well as longevity, Riesling is hard to beat. If you don't like it, you don't like it, and you have my sympathy. I have more Riesling (both German and Alsatian) in my cellar than any other single white varietal.

Interesting--I don't consider sublety an attribute of Riesling at all. Rather, vividness, which is pretty much the opposite. However, can I opine that you are not an adventurous white wine drinker? That is, I don't have the impression you actually have much white in your cellar. You've opened reislings, gewurz, savvenieres and Loire chenins plus one or two Cloudy Bay sauvignon blancs--usually many years out from vintage, but apart from sparkles I can't recall any others outside of that relatively narrow band. You certainly enjoy fine examples of fresh white variety when a good glass is handed to you--but it does not appear that you seek out variety the way some of us do. I'm guessing you overall drink a lot less white wine than we do.

All of which I mention because you brought up longevity. The durability of Riesling is certainly a benefit.

not an adventurous white wine drinker?..guess you headed for trouble there Jenise!!!!

No, the fact that I decline to cellar many whites has nothing to do with my enjoyment of them nor my knowledge of them.

In fact back when I was doing competitive blind tasting events I often had perfect white wine scores (slightly less perfect on reds).

If you don't see subtlety in Riesling, You need to drink more of them and older wines with secondary and tertiary characteristics!

[David M. Bueker]

Nuance and subtlety are two key facets of top Riesling that drive my enjoyment of it.

[Jenise]

not an adventurous white wine drinker?..guess you headed for trouble there Jenise!!!!

I probably could have put that better.

[Jenise]

No, the fact that I decline to cellar many whites has nothing to do with my enjoyment of them nor my knowledge of them.

I've tasted too many good bottles of white wine with you not to know that, Bill. But at the same time, I don't have the impression that you buy nearly as much white wine or nearly as much variety of white as we do--or Coop, or Nadine and David, to name some mutual friends. I tend to doubt that you go into a wine store and load up several cases with onesies and twosies of assorted whites just for the fun of trying them all the way I do. Which is neither right nor wrong--I frustrate myself with my propensity for breadth over depth, but all the same, I do it. I want to try everything once.

But no, Riesling doesn't strike me as subtle. It's a kaleidoscopic cacophony of flavor--and apparently Robin gets the same thing. Sure, over time things calm down, but they do with all aged wines. For subtlety? Give me white burgundy.

I tend to drink rather than cellar many whites. I only keep 12 or 15 cases of white at a given time and unless you come to dinner (as you have, of course) you will never see one of those bottles. I bring reds almost exclusively to events.

But no, Riesling doesn't strike me as subtle. It's a kaleidoscopic cacophony of flavor--and apparently Robin gets the same thing. ..

Here I think you might be transferring components of the residual sugar onto the grape itself?

For me, the hallmarks of riesling are the relatively sparse and delicate structure, along with the floral and verdant flavors and aromas. The German residual sugar wines take that background into a kaleidoscopic cacophony of flavor but that's a relatively small slice of riesling, even if it is so delicious and unique!

If anything when you taste a young dry riesling you'll often be wishing for more flavor!

For me, White Burgundy tends to have more weight and power and potentially more 'layers' from the elevage, and I definitely see why some people prefer it. But I wouldn't call it more 'subtle' than riesling as a category.

[David M. Bueker]

That got me thinking of wines such as Trimbach CFE, which is anything but a kaleidoscopic cacophony of flavor. It's more like an avalanche of rocks.

[Jenise]

That got me thinking of wines such as Trimbach CFE, which is anything but a kaleidoscopic cacophony of flavor. It's more like an avalanche of rocks.

If all Riesling were CFE's, I'd definitely want to own an avalanche of them.