Let's talk about Oak

How do you distinguish the tannin that comes from oak with that from the grape itself?

Is it a different texture, a different astringency, or does it effect a different part of the mouth?

Thanks in advance.

Marc

How do you distinguish the tannin that comes from oak with that from the grape itself?

Is it a different texture, a different astringency, or does it effect a different part of the mouth?

Wow - not an easy question ot answer and this is a matter of considerable research right now.

In terms of how you perceive the two, the answer is probably that you might not be able to tell the difference in all instances, although grape tannins are said to be more astringent and may be felt more at the edges of the tongue and the inside of the cheeks, but don't hold me to that.

You can buy grape tannins an additive for home winemakers (visions of amateurs with chemistry sets), so some experimentation might be in order. Add a bit of grape tannin to a very soft wine and see if it seems much different from a mildly tannic wine with no additives that you surmise would probablt derive most of the existing tannin from oak rather than grape stems?

Ripeness at harvest is said to have a considerable effect on how 'green' and 'raw' the grape tannins may be, as does the amount of destemming carried out.

And BTW, white wines can also have significant tannins, though it is rarer than in reds.

the grape tannins you can buy are widely used by commercial wineries esp in cooler climated to help fix the coloring in red wines - which has a tendency to fall out. at least this is my understanding of its use.

It's not uncommon for winemakers to use additive tannins. Specifically, it is common for winemakers to use powdered tannins, often added toward the end of the maturation cycle. This is seen as adding a little structure, but with the powdered tannins you get a softer effect, which makes the wine not as harsh.

So is it (natural) grape tannin, tannin from the MOG, tannin from the barrel, or powdered tannin? Hard to tell in the finished product. Harder to tell, I think, for the powdered tannin. Easier to tell if it's MOG, or unripe grapes.

I thought I prefered Chablis with no oak until someone posted that some of the top Chablis names do use oak barrels. I was very attracted to a Chassagne-Montrachet that had a slight butterscotch flavor, probably from new French oak. I also liked a Frei Pinot Noir that I thought had subtle oak flavors to frame the fruit flavors. As with Dale, I prefer wine where oak is not the first thing noticed--I look for fruit and floral elements, etc. and if there is a subtle oak underpinning, that may be okay, especially with red wines and white Burgundies that have enough character to "stand up" to the oak. Too much oak in a white wine (and I've encountered it with Sauvignon Blanc--more's the shame) tastes like sucking on a toothpick, or as one post said "a charred toothpick."

Too much oak in a white wine (and I've encountered it with Sauvignon Blanc--more's the shame) tastes like sucking on a toothpick, or as one post said "a charred toothpick."

You rarely get tannin in white wines made from red skinned grapes, as they simply don't leave the must on tha skins for long enough to extract much tannin as they don't want to extract much colour. An exception would be with some Pinot Gris where the end result is almost Rosé.

Your example is an interesting one as it raises a question for me. I have noticed tannins most in some Sauternes, which are predominantly Semillon, so I made the logical leap to assuming that the tannins also came from that grape. Your post makes me question that. They may come from either grape or both.

Does anyone know if varying amounts of tannin come from different grapes, or whether it is a simple matter if how much time the must contains the stems and pips?

Too much oak in a white wine (and I've encountered it with Sauvignon Blanc--more's the shame) tastes like sucking on a toothpick, or as one post said "a charred toothpick."

You rarely get tannin in white wines made from red skinned grapes, as they simply don't leave the must on tha skins for long enough to extract much tannin as they don't want to extract much colour. An exception would be with some Pinot Gris where the end result is almost Rosé.

Your example is an interesting one as it raises a question for me. I have noticed tannins most in some Sauternes, which are predominantly Semillon, so I made the logical leap to assuming that the tannins also came from that grape. Your post makes me question that. They may come from either grape or both.

Does anyone know if varying amounts of tannin come from different grapes, or whether it is a simple matter if how much time the must contains the stems and pips?

Someone told me a long time ago (maybe even on this board) that green grapes contain more tannin that black ones. And that that is one of the reasons why green grapes are not fermented on their skins - because it results in very astringent wine. But I have not heard it from any other source so as far as I am concerned it has "factoid" status. I'd be delighted if someone could confirm or deny.

JC, some grapes are better suited to "carry" oak than others.

Chardonnay does, and can.

Riesling doesn't, and in my estimation, can't. I've never had an oaked version (and yes, I've had some, largely experiments) that carried any oak well.

By and large, I don't believe SB is suited well to oak---although, yes, better than Riesling. Some folks like a bit of oak on SB, as it tends to fill out what can sometimes be a hollow middle palate. For instance, it's not unknown in New Zealand for some of the winemakers to blend in a small amount of oak-treated SB to help balance out the aggressiveness of the early-harvested and screechingly 'green' nature of the grapes.

And some people just like a bit of oak on SB. I tend not too, although there have been a few that were okay. (oaky, oaky: get it?)

Coming from another direction, I've found an awful lot of the 'un-oaked chards' to be rather simple and essentially uninteresting. The exceptions tend to be those unoaked chards that, in some way, add texture or character to what I think is essentially a fairly limited grape by itself. Usually, that involves something as deceptively simple as using a little lees contact.

Hoke, do you know how much the various grapes vary in tannin content/contribution?

I can certainly see some being higher than others in tannins but I don't recall any evidence on this - after all, we ARE getting into some pretty esoteric (but fun) oenological discussions here.

Hoke, do you know how much the various grapes vary in tannin content/contribution?

I can certainly see some being higher than others in tannins but I don't recall any evidence on this - after all, we ARE getting into some pretty esoteric (but fun) oenological discussions here.

Yep, verging on a bit too esoteric for me. But I do have the opportunity to call on some winemakers, some growers, and a UC Davis person who knows whereof he speaks. So I'll ask. (Of course, approaching a winemaker of vineyard manager this particular week in Sonoma/Mendocino might get my head snapped off, but we'll see. )

Yeah, I'll see if I can get our local oenology school prof and see if he has the answers too.

Generally your non-aromatic grapes have a good affinity to oak treatment.

Salute

Bill, I was talking about oak barrels/chips used with white wines--not natural tannins in the white grapes. I prefer Sauvignon Blanc without oak treatment but some California wineries (and per Hoke some New Zealand wineries) do use oak barrels for S.B. Also, some oak may be used in Bordeaux white wine blends. Silverado Vineyards was lauded in one of Andrea Immer's wine guides for a refreshing crisp unoaked Sauvignon Blanc so I ordered a glass at a local restaurant and it tasted like dipping a toothpick into a glass of SB and then sucking on the toothpick. Apparently the winery was making more than one style of SB at the time and I happened upon the oaky style. Ugh! I only had a couple sips.

Steve wrote;
Someone told me a long time ago (maybe even on this board) that green grapes contain more tannin that black ones. And that that is one of the reasons why green grapes are not fermented on their skins - because it results in very astringent wine. But I have not heard it from any other source so as far as I am concerned it has "factoid" status. I'd be delighted if someone could confirm or deny.

I’m not so sure if white grapes have more tannin than red grapes, but generally white grapes contain more “co-factors” or chemical components that could “stack”, “link”, or ‘bond” with anthocyanin thus stabilizing color. As far as tannin in white wines not only does one have to consider “skin contact” time (maceration) but also at what pressure or how hard were the grapes pressed.

Salute

A major part is micro-oxygenation.

Yeah, sometimes (even frequently). But not always. Micro-ox is becoming a bigger and bigger part of winemaking technique these days, often in the low-priced wine tiers, sometimes in the higher-priced. And yes, a lot of the non-barrel oaked wines are also micro-ox---it's part of the original technique popularized by the Aussies (what, you thought they were using new French oak barrels for Yellow Tail? )

Hoke could you elaborate on exactly what "Micro-ox" involves and what it does to flavors, tannins, etc?

Here’s an article some might find interesting;

http://www.winebusiness.com/html/Monthl ... taId=13470

Salute

Wow. Almost, but not quite more than I wanted to know. Thanks Victor.

A major part is micro-oxygenation.

Yeah, sometimes (even frequently). But not always. Micro-ox is becoming a bigger and bigger part of winemaking technique these days, often in the low-priced wine tiers, sometimes in the higher-priced. And yes, a lot of the non-barrel oaked wines are also micro-ox---it's part of the original technique popularized by the Aussies (what, you thought they were using new French oak barrels for Yellow Tail? )

Hoke could you elaborate on exactly what "Micro-ox" involves and what it does to flavors, tannins, etc?

Bob,

In the most simple explanation, micro-oxygenation is intended to mimic what happens when a wine ages in an oak barrel. It's essentially a slow process of introducing oxygen into solution, as if it were being transferred from outside to inside a barrel.

I’ll just throw these articles at you; for good measure. Most interesting is the concentration of certain phenolic compounds (analysis of Wine C) under two different degrees of micro-ox and barrel storage treatments.

http://www.newworldwinemaker.com/articles/view?id=262
http://www.newworldwinemaker.com/articles/view?id=262

Salute

Oak barrels, depending on their age, oak type and toast level, contribute certain flavors to wine. Besides the obvious oak flavors, oak can impart clove, nutmeg, cinnamon, caramel, chocolate, coffee, and vanilla. So winemakers will do what they call barrel trials to determine which type of oak barrel can best produce the flavors they want in their finished wine.

Salute

Does the wine maker using these barels speculate or is it a science as what the barrel will do to the wine?
Steve

Oak barrels, depending on their age, oak type and toast level, contribute certain flavors to wine. Besides the obvious oak flavors, oak can impart clove, nutmeg, cinnamon, caramel, chocolate, coffee, and vanilla. So winemakers will do what they call barrel trials to determine which type of oak barrel can best produce the flavors they want in their finished wine.

Salute

Does the wine maker using these barels speculate or is it a science as what the barrel will do to the wine?
Steve

How about somewhere vaguely in between those two points, Steve?

There are known (recognized, commonly agreed upon) attributes of oak, but the results of oak maturation are not always predictable. That's why Victor referred to barrel trials. Much of what winemakers do is trial (and trial and error, by extension). The best winemakers, in my opinion, are those who constantly have all sorts of trials going on.

The best winemakers, in my opinion, are those who constantly have all sorts of trials going on.

With what wine?

What if they don't have enough of their own wine for 'trials'?

The best winemakers, in my opinion, are those who constantly have all sorts of trials going on.

With what wine?

What if they don't have enough of their own wine for 'trials'?

? With any wine.

You don't necessarily have to use industrial amounts, Rahsaan?

Besides, there are all sorts of trials. Vineyard trials, style trials (how do you know what a sparklebubble is going to taste like if you don't make a couple? how do you know what late harvest botrytised chardonnay will taste like if you don't make one?)

One of my favorite trials within the last few years was because of happenstance and weather. The great windstorm in France a few years ago resulted in thousands and thousands of windfall trees. As a result, our marrondier had the opportunity to purchase at auction two trees that grew very close together. One was 140 years old; the other was just past 200 years old. The marrondier told our winemaker, and they decided to process the oak from the trees separately but totally alike. So three years later, the barrels arrived.

We ran trials by putting the same juice, from the same block of one of our vineyards. We took every step we could to make sure the chardonnay that went into the barrels was exactly the same. Then we held frequent taste and aroma trials. Both professionally, and with visitors who came through the cellar.

The distinction between the two was marked. Even the most inexperienced of palates, without any foreknowledge of what they were tasting, could identify---and more importantly, describe---the difference. And without fail (that I know of anyway) the preference was for the barrel from the 200 year old tree.

The winemaker I speak of makes only chardonnay. But he has been making chardonnay from the same set of vineyards, every harvest for the last 27 years. Soon to be 28. And he constantly runs all sorts of trials. It keeps him fresh and knowledgeable about his vineyards, his grapes, his cellar, and his wines.

The best winemakers, in my opinion, are those who constantly have all sorts of trials going on.

In some areas the winemakers do not do any great degree of experimentation because they have a product developed over decades or centuries and the expectation is that they will continue to make as close to the same thing as is possible given the vicissitudes of weather and the available materials.

That doesn't necessarily make them less than good winemakers.