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Is acidulation bad?

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Thomas

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Re: Is acidulation bad?

by Thomas » Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:10 am

Oswaldo Costa wrote:
Victorwine wrote:The so called “industrial” standard for ripeness (if by this you mean the traditional Brix to TA ratio) came into existence only because this was “typical” for a specific wine growing region.


Thanks for your clarifications throughout this thread. My understanding is that the so-called industrial standard is not dependent on custom or culture or taste. It reflects a physiological point of inflection in the grape's maturation, different for every type of grape, at which sweetness stops increasing as a result of increasing amounts of sugar, and begins to increase by concentration of the existing amount of sugar. In other words, up to the industrial point, sweetness increases as a result of accumulation; after that, sweetness increases as a result of concentration. Is this true?


The trouble is, Oswaldo, this isn't exactly true for all grape varieties. Some actually go into reverse sugar or acid mode at a certain maturation point. In fact, I just came back from a two-day conference at Cornell University. At the experiment station they work to try to identify the various differences in grape variety maturation.

And as we post, there's a fellow running around the world selling a maturation identifiction process that supposedly identifies individual maturation by sight, feel, and taste with special emphasis on the color of the seeds and stems. I took his seminar two years ago and then went out into the vineyard with some winemakers for an article about the process. Promising as it is, I recently read a pooh, poohing of this berry identification system from none other than Tom Stevenson in a two-part article on Riesling.

My point: this subject has yet to be solidified in the wine science world, so whatever you hear or read may be influenced by the science, but often with a dose of belief systems thrown in for support.
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Re: Is acidulation bad?

by Oliver McCrum » Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:13 pm

Thomas,

thank you for reminding me how useful Stevenson is. I just read the Riesling article you mention, and found this, which bears on this discussion: 'In fact the whole "physiologically ripe" issue is a nonsense. It's as tautological as asking someone how "chronologically old" they are.'
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Re: Is acidulation bad?

by Victorwine » Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:32 pm

Years ago if one called UC Davis and asked for a recommendation to when to pick your red grapes, very likely it was suggested that when the Brix to TA ratio gets as close as 30:1 as possible. How they actually came up with this 30:1 ratio, I’m not really sure. But very likely for California this ratio was probably very “typical” (or easily obtainable) for California grapes. These two factors can be easily and quickly determined and measured. For those on the east coast (or in regions which are less hospitably to vinifera grapes) of the US where the Brix to TA ratio of 30:1 is pretty much unobtainable, the growers and winemakers wanted to come up with another “standard” to measure ripeness. So they came up with an equation- Brix times pH squared (Brix X pH2), while at the same time carefully monitoring TA. (For white grapes when this number approaches XXX and for red grapes when this number approaches YYY its time to harvest). Again all that one has to do is look at three variables in determining the ripeness level, which are fairly easily and quickly measured and taken and evaluated. For areas where your harvest window is short, the quickness and easiness of measuring Brix, TA, and pH could be “priceless” in some years.
As for phenolic or physiologically ripeness, now there are a slew of variables to consider. Determining or measuring phenolic concentrations is not a very easy task; it takes very expensive lab equipment and trained individuals. As suggested by others there is no “universal” definition of ripeness; and surely somehow the Brix to TA ratio, Brix X pH2, and phenolic ripeness is indeed somehow related. Its best I think, to think of each berry as its own biologically factory.

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Re: Is acidulation bad?

by Thomas » Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:00 pm

Victorwine wrote:As for phenolic or physiologically ripeness, now there are a slew of variables to consider. Determining or measuring phenolic concentrations is not a very easy task; it takes very expensive lab equipment and trained individuals. As suggested by others there is no “universal” definition of ripeness; and surely somehow the Brix to TA ratio, Brix X pH2, and phenolic ripeness is indeed somehow related. Its best I think, to think of each berry as its own biologically factory.

Salute


True.

To add to the equation, years of experience tasting selected bunches of each variety is often as accurate as any sugar/pH/acid/phenolic ratio measurement, and I know many who still do it that way.

To further add to the equation, each vintage delivers its annual surprises. All the measurements in the world can't get you beyond what the harvest weather will leave you to work with, and sometimes that is all you've got; then, it's "calculate the additions" time and await the complaints of purists who don't have to make such decisions.
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