Terry Theise on his love affair with Riesling

But no, Riesling doesn't strike me as subtle. It's a kaleidoscopic cacophony of flavor--and apparently Robin gets the same thing. ..

Here I think you might be transferring components of the residual sugar onto the grape itself?

For me, the hallmarks of riesling are the relatively sparse and delicate structure, along with the floral and verdant flavors and aromas. The German residual sugar wines take that background into a kaleidoscopic cacophony of flavor but that's a relatively small slice of riesling, even if it is so delicious and unique!

If anything when you taste a young dry riesling you'll often be wishing for more flavor!

For me, White Burgundy tends to have more weight and power and potentially more 'layers' from the elevage, and I definitely see why some people prefer it. But I wouldn't call it more 'subtle' than riesling as a category.

But no, Riesling doesn't strike me as subtle. It's a kaleidoscopic cacophony of flavor--and apparently Robin gets the same thing. ..

Here I think you might be transferring components of the residual sugar onto the grape itself?

For me, the hallmarks of riesling are the relatively sparse and delicate structure, along with the floral and verdant flavors and aromas. The German residual sugar wines take that background into a kaleidoscopic cacophony of flavor but that's a relatively small slice of riesling, even if it is so delicious and unique!

If anything when you taste a young dry riesling you'll often be wishing for more flavor!

For me, White Burgundy tends to have more weight and power and potentially more 'layers' from the elevage, and I definitely see why some people prefer it. But I wouldn't call it more 'subtle' than riesling as a category.

That says it as I also see it.

As for white Burgundy, my preference goes for Chablis where there are less "layers from élevage". When it comes to warm climate Chardonnay, I put most of them into the "dislike" category, whereas Grosset amongst others in South Australia has excellent results with dry Riesling.

[Robin Garr]

Okay, I couldn't resist. I dug back through my notebooks and found an unpublished TN on an Aussie Riesling that I really liked. So, for the record, I'm not a hard-core hater.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=55482

It used to be the case that many Southern hemisphere Rieslings were so atypical (of European styles, not that there is anything wrong with that) to the degree that they were difficult even guess as being Riesling in blind tastings, as they were often bereft of all the usual tip offs.

That certainly isn't the case today and Antipodean Rieslings (especially ones like Grosset, Pewsey Vale, Felton Road, Pegasus Bay etc.) are pretty darned interesting.

I've noted some hopeful developments in both South Africa and Chile as well.

[Jenise]

It used to be the case that many Southern hemisphere Rieslings were so atypical (of European styles, not that there is anything wrong with that) to the degree that they were difficult even guess as being Riesling in blind tastings, as they were often bereft of all the usual tip offs.

That certainly isn't the case today and Antipodean Rieslings (especially ones like Grosset, Pewsey Vale, Felton Road, Pegasus Bay etc.) are pretty darned interesting.

I've noted some hopeful developments in both South Africa and Chile as well.

Y'all have a point in that I certainly don't give all Rieslings a fair chance. I expect them all to be Germanic even while I know they're not. But again, where I live I don't see the alternatives very often.

It used to be the case that many Southern hemisphere Rieslings were so atypical (of European styles, not that there is anything wrong with that) to the degree that they were difficult even guess as being Riesling in blind tastings, as they were often bereft of all the usual tip offs.

That certainly isn't the case today and Antipodean Rieslings (especially ones like Grosset, Pewsey Vale, Felton Road, Pegasus Bay etc.) are pretty darned interesting.

I've noted some hopeful developments in both South Africa and Chile as well.

Y'all have a point in that I certainly don't give all Rieslings a fair chance. I expect them all to be Germanic even while I know they're not. But again, where I live I don't see the alternatives very often.

Jenise, the style with RS, which you call "Germanic", has now become rather old fashioned. Nowadays, dry Riesling, spearheaded by VDP, is all the rage in Deutschland.

What is the style of Riesling produced in the Pacific North-West? Doesn't Ernie Loosen have a JV there?

Some Alsatians have flirted with RS in their basic Rieslings but I hope that they are rowing back now. An increasing number of producers there are providing dryness/sweetness guidance on their labels.

[David M. Bueker]

Jenise, the style with RS, which you call "Germanic", has now become rather old fashioned. Nowadays, dry Riesling, spearheaded by VDP, is all the rage in Deutschland.

Are you calling J. J. Prum and Egon Muller old fashioned? Those are fighting words!!

[Robin Garr]

Okay, in the interest of re-training, I walked up to the corner wine shop just now and, out of a modest selection (maybe a dozen "old-style" German Rieslings and another dozen with hip, modern labels), I got this old-style item because Theise and because Skurnik. Will I be happy?

J & H Selbach 2014 Saar Riesling Spätlese

Are you calling J. J. Prum and Egon Muller old fashioned?

Sidestepping the question of whether the residual sugar wines are new or old-fashioned, the image portrayed by those two producers (label, personality, wine style) is definitely old-fashioned in my book!

On RS, I find that my 'sweet' spot is Spatlese. With Auslesen, I prefer them with considerable age. It isn't that either the acidity or sugar levels actually change (I don't think that they do although anyone that knows better should speak up) it is that our impression of them changes and the older more complex Rieslings present as being somewhat dryer than they did in youth.

I am also a big fan of the Alsatian Rieslings, dry or off dry - fantastic wines.

[Jenise]

Jenise, the style with RS, which you call "Germanic", has now become rather old fashioned. Nowadays, dry Riesling, spearheaded by VDP, is all the rage in Deutschland.

What is the style of Riesling produced in the Pacific North-West? Doesn't Ernie Loosen have a JV there?

Some Alsatians have flirted with RS in their basic Rieslings but I hope that they are rowing back now. An increasing number of producers there are providing dryness/sweetness guidance on their labels.

Naively, I have to ask: what's 'VDP'?

I'm seeing more and more Riesling up here. And yes, Ernie's partnered with Chateau Ste. Michelle on a premium Riesling called Eroica. But separately, Ste. Michelle is the largest Riesling producer in the world; their Dry Riesling is actually quite fetching, and inexpensive. Last I looked, around $8--but most of it goes to Asia. I got offered another just the other day by a producer called Trust. And here's the issue: 14% alcohol and 1.6 RS. I passed. I've had others that I've liked at other wineries that have been drier, and some even get the petrol thing that I love about German Rieslings. But for whatever reason, I rarely find them compelling enough to buy where the same producer might offer a Sauvignon Blanc, and that I go for.

Naively, I have to ask: what's 'VDP'?.

http://www.courtofmastersommeliers.org/ ... es/VDP.pdf

[David M. Bueker]

There is scads of Chateau Ste. Michelle Riesling available in my area, dry, not dry and the Loosen project Eroica. It is all decidedly sub-standard and not worth the minimal tariff. There has yet to be a single Washington State Riesling that can reasonably challenge bargain level German, Austrian or Alsatian Riesling. They should rip it out and plant over cropped Merlot. I am completely serious.

[Jenise]

There is scads of Chateau Ste. Michelle Riesling available in my area, dry, not dry and the Loosen project Eroica. It is all decidedly sub-standard and not worth the minimal tariff. There has yet to be a single Washington State Riesling that can reasonably challenge bargain level German, Austrian or Alsatian Riesling. They should rip it out and plant over cropped Merlot. I am completely serious.

CSM wines, every single one of them, are all what I'd call sub-standard (made for mass appeal, not expert palates) wines. So I can understand why you'd say that about their Rieslings. The dry Riesling I mentioned isn't exceptional, it's just pleasing for the low price. And I preferred it to the Eroica. I doubt any Riesling made here could possibly win your admiration. I tasted one from B.C. that I thought might, Bill poured it a few years ago--from Tantalus. Bill, a friend named Coop who has the finest palate I know, and I all sat there and stared at the bottle, fairly dumbfounded at the quality. It was the most German non-German Riesling any of us had ever had. But even then, it probably wouldn't 'pass' for you.

[David M. Bueker]

It might. I have enjoyed a number of Canadian wines.

It might. I have enjoyed a number of Canadian wines.

Come to BC and I'll open some!

[Jenise]

It might. I have enjoyed a number of Canadian wines.

Well, you'll get to try one. I bought one (different vintage than Bill's) to send you with some auto parts a few months back. It rests in the cellar awaiting me getting off my duff.

[David M. Bueker]

We'll be just over the continental divide in September.

We'll be just over the continental divide in September.

Try and get out this way - it could be interesting!

[Jenise]

Okay so tonight I decided we should have a glass of Riesling with dinner. I checked the cellar and didn't find anything but a handful of Spatleses and Ausleses from the 90's and a handful of mid 2000's Spatleses, so I decided to turn the pound of lean ground beef I had into a spicy dan-dan noodle dish to go with a bottle I chose at random--I have no preference among those we own. At least, other than the Prums which I bought because, after all, Prum, I have no idea why I bought the others. The bottle we ended up with was a Fritz Haag Brauneberger Juffer, 2006.

The experience reminded me all over again why I so rarely open these. They're incredibly delicious but intense and tiring. More, to my tastes, like a dessert wine. At the end of the evening we had half a bottle left where a drier wine we usually/probably would have finished. Of course, some would say that's a good thing. I get that I should be trying dry Rieslings, and I'll make an effort to seek some out in the future.

But in the meantime, a question for Bill who volunteered that Spatlese was his sweet spot: what do you serve these with? Or do you just hang on to them until they dry out? You're about the only person I know who has less of a sweet tooth than I do, so I'm guessing you don't venture into the 'sweet heat' style of cooking that rather suits them.

Jenise, your last post describes admirably why I am screwing up my courage to auction off 60+ bottles of German prädikat Riesling of that sort of calibre. "Like a dessert wine" has it in a nutshell and we only drink dessert wines about 3 times per year.

The difference between us is that I love Riesling and would use the proceeds to buy more but dry examples, partly from VDP estates.

The link Bill provided on VDP illustrates the incredible muddle into which German wine labelling has sunk. The way I look at it is that VDP is trying to replicate the Burgundian appellation hierarchy for dry(ish) wines but is preserving the 1971 prädikat categories for sweeter wines. For example, following the Burgundian model, the VDP label for a dry Grand Cru equivalent, "Grosses Gewächs", now only puts the vineyard name on the label, Norheimer Dellchen Riesling Spätlese trocken becoming Dellchen only. (I hope I have this right ; someone please correct me if I haven't.)

And as the link says, VDP is not the only body with a private labelling system.

The rant begins here..................................

I see Tantalus mentioned above. Has to be one of the best non-German rieslings I have ever sampled!
Next up for me is the 2008 Dry Dam from d`Arenberg from the land of OZ.
To be honest I buy both sweet and trocken rieslings and am quite happy doing so! If living closer to Tim, I would buy everything he had on offer .
Kabinett is another story for another place .

Jenise, your last post describes admirably why I am screwing up my courage to auction off 60+ bottles of German prädikat Riesling of that sort of calibre. "Like a dessert wine" has it in a nutshell and we only drink dessert wines about 3 times per year.

Plus 2006 was a crazy ripe year and Jenise's spatlese/auslese was probably literally a dessert wine.

[David M. Bueker]

Jenise, your last post describes admirably why I am screwing up my courage to auction off 60+ bottles of German prädikat Riesling of that sort of calibre. "Like a dessert wine" has it in a nutshell and we only drink dessert wines about 3 times per year.

Plus 2006 was a crazy ripe year and Jenise's spatlese/auslese was probably literally a dessert wine.

Exactly. 2006 was bizarre in terms of ripeness (I own a couple of bottles of wine labeled kabinett that are in fact beerenauslese ripeness) and heavy botrytis. The only way they work at the table is with spicy General Tso's Chicken or some other sweet/spicy concoction with limited appeal.

Even the 2006 Prums are huge, dessert style wines, and Prum is a defender of tradition.