Screw top wines being ruined by sulphidisation?

Hi Larry and welcome,

Larry wrote:
I will be bottling all of my own wines - whites, rose, and reds - under screw caps . . . I do not want to deal with 'off' bottles due to cork issues . . .

Surely however, you will concern yourself with the design and function of the screw-cap for each of the different styles and types of wines you produce?

Salute

who you calling anecdotal?

My results are actual - and I strongly doubt they are isolated

i think the key point here is that these wines have sat here a long while in the stores since release, in the heat, in light - screwcap wines that sell quickly and get drank/drunk quickly might not show the problems I am experiencing - and i'm not "allegedly" experiencing problems. These are real problems. Try doing a Brdx wine dinner with 8 bottles of sulphury Ch Bonnet 2005 as your greeting wine

[David M. Bueker]

But Craig - you continue to attribute the problem to the closure & not how the winery handles the use of the closure. I have also had some wines under screwcap that were clearly reduced. The same winery in the next vintage did not show the problems - they learned how to handle screw caps.

It's a learning process, but not one to step away from, as the TCA devil is alive and well (just last night at my group's tasting - a corked bottle of Two Hands Samantha's Garden Shiraz - one of the few wines that that winery still leaves under cork - talk about divine retribution...).

true, but I'll be honest - I have only experienced this recently (in teh last 6 months) with screwcaps - I've never had sulphury Bonnet before, for example.

the only other wines that I've noted sulphur in over the years, in cork bottles, were the odd German Riesling, and Loire Sauv blanc -- and of course we called it flinty and attributed it to terroir! (which I'm now thinking was BS)

in fact when i was in Germany last year, the group of Sommeliers I was traveling with were arguing, along with David Lawrason who happened to be at the same tasting, about the wines we were tasting - is this terroir or oversulphiting? There were people on both sides who swore they were right. I was on the fence.

[David M. Bueker]

true, but I'll be honest - I have only experienced this recently (in the last 6 months) with screwcaps - I've never had sulphury Bonnet before, for example.

Bonnet has probably not yet modified their bottling procedures to accomodate screwcaps - again winery fault, not closure. Isn't Bonnet new to caps?

in fact when i was in Germany last year, the group of Sommeliers I was traveling with were arguing, along with David Lawrason who happened to be at the same tasting, about the wines we were tasting - is this terroir or oversulphiting? There were people on both sides who swore they were right. I was on the fence.

There's a couple of things going on with German Riesling:

1. Some wineries leave the wine on the lees for an extended period (e.g. J. J. Prum) which adds an aroma that only augments the sulphurous odors. I tend to decant young Prum wines for 8-10 hours & the leesy and sulphury aromas both disappear or at least substantially reduce.

2. Some producers do indeed use a good bit of sulphur, but they are generally looking for extended bottle maturation, and use the sulphur as a protection against oxidation.

It's not terroir.

Victor,

I will bottle all of my wines using a Saranex liner to allow for some trans ox rather than tin liners which allow for a very minimal amount of transfer of oxygen in or out.

And Craig, I guess my point was that this was one isolated wine . . . is this something you've experienced on a regular basis with other screw capped wines? And as David mentioned, the wine may simply have been 'faulty' to begin with - have you or do you have the opportunity to try the same wine in cork?

I wasn't trying to 'call you out' - it's just that there are a lot of people on wine boards 'bashing' screw cap wines for the sulfide issue when most have never experienced this issue with these wines on a regular basis - either just occasionally or not at all but are reacting to the furor created from the original AWRI study out of Australia - which was conduced with a wine that had mercaptans in it to start with!

Enough soap boxing - have a great day!

Thanks Larry!

Salute

I realize this is a resurrected thread, but I keep coming back to it thinking that "Bucko" has returned.

I nearly fell for it too Howie, Suppose we miss the old F**T?

Victor,

I will bottle all of my wines using a Saranex liner to allow for some trans ox rather than tin liners which allow for a very minimal amount of transfer of oxygen in or out.

And Craig, I guess my point was that this was one isolated wine . . . is this something you've experienced on a regular basis with other screw capped wines? And as David mentioned, the wine may simply have been 'faulty' to begin with - have you or do you have the opportunity to try the same wine in cork?

I wasn't trying to 'call you out' - it's just that there are a lot of people on wine boards 'bashing' screw cap wines for the sulfide issue when most have never experienced this issue with these wines on a regular basis - either just occasionally or not at all but are reacting to the furor created from the original AWRI study out of Australia - which was conduced with a wine that had mercaptans in it to start with!

Enough soap boxing - have a great day!

Oh I'm not that senstive

I have experienced problems regularly, at events I do, yes, but it certainly had nothing to do with reading about any controversy. To be honest, I almost never read wine magazines. I know...as a writer I'm supposed to. But I find them boring. I'd rather spend my spare time reading speculative fiction.

I just buy and taste wines, and talk to my wine-friends, go to tastings etc. tro keep my palate up to speed. Then, when I'm teaching the Sommelier program, I dive back in and get up to speed on each country's wine law changes, stats, new appellations, issues.

And I go to winery websites when writing about specific wines. So I'm sometimes unaware of the big international issues for periods of time. Until I had this sulphur problem, and went looking for an explanation, I had no idea about the Aussie NZ work or the big controversy at the wine competitions. In fact I've been a big supporter of screwcaps in my columns - because, as a teacher and event runner, I HATE corked wines!

When I noticed the problem, I did a google search on sulphur and screwcap, and one site that came up was Tony Gismondi's. I knwo him and trust his palate. He keeps a separate tasting note section on non-cork wines. Check it out here:

http://www.gismondionwine.com/wine_list ... ork_search

Interestingly, as you look through the notes, there sure are a lot of wines with sulphur problems!

I have done some blind side by side tasting of aged screwcap vs cork wines (The Tinhorn Creek experiment) but never noted any sulphur problems. I noted a big difference in the wines tho...

Anyway, I'm just keeping my eyes open these days. And I'm currently wary of screwcaps. Rejoining this list should keep me in the loop on other such issues, I hope.

[David M. Bueker]

Larry - welcome to the other side of the internet. Good to have you here.

I will not let this thread die!

No seriously, I had opened another Screwcap white yesterday - FLAGSTONE FREERUN SAUV BL FROM SOUTH AFRICA - and yep, it was a bit sulphury - it blew off quickly and turns out to be quite the intense Sv Bl - really vegetal.

I''ll try ti again today at lunch, after being open in the fridge for 24 hrs

and yesterday, during the Wine Expo judging, I noted two whites in the blind "under $15" whites section that had the SO2 "burn the nose" thing going on.Not sure if they were screwcap, but they were aussie whites, so probably yes, one a Pinot Grigio and one Sauvignon Blanc

and yesterday, during the Wine Expo judging, I noted two whites in the blind "under $15" whites section that had the SO2 "burn the nose" thing going on.Not sure if they were screwcap, but they were aussie whites, so probably yes, one a Pinot Grigio and one Sauvignon Blanc

Totally OT, but I was interested in this comment. So at the Wine Expo judging do you only judge SOME wines blind and others with the label showing?

Craig,

Not sure I would make the jump that since the whites had a 'sulfur issue' that they were Aussies . . .

As I said earlier, I have found some wines under screwcap to have similar 'rubbery' qualities upon opening that blow off . . . At no point have I had a screw cap wine that had the sulfur issues I alluded to earlier. This is not to say that they don't exist - I just have not experienced them . . .

My point again is that unless you're tasting the wine side by side with its 'twin' bottled under a different closure, it is simply not possible to assign problems experienced to the closure . . . there are soooo many other potential causes . . .

Thanks again for keeping the post going - love talking about and reading about and hearing about the topic!

I will not let this thread die!

No seriously, I had opened another Screwcap white yesterday - FLAGSTONE FREERUN SAUV BL FROM SOUTH AFRICA - and yep, it was a bit sulphury - it blew off quickly and turns out to be quite the intense Sv Bl - really vegetal.

What exactly do you mean by 'a bit sulphury'?

they were 100% blind as to brand -- what we knew was:
origin (country only)
grape (main grape(s)
price range (under 15, 15-30, over 30)
I would rather do it 100% blind, but I'm just a hired gun - i do what i'm told

I have no idea if the defective wines in the comp were screwcap - just speculating

The Flagstone was not from the competition, it is one of the sale wines in NB right now (I bought 6 bottles of 04 BP&F Meursault for $30 a btl today, and a bunch of $80-110 Brunello and Barolo for $40-50).

By a bit sulphury, I mean: when i opened the cap, a whiff of the fires of hell shot up my nose, making me sneeze and my eyes water. I had that wine today after being in the fridge overnight, and it smells and tastes clean

Again, I am NOT talking about rubbery or skunk or garlic or anything like that -- just sulphur, like I remember from when I worked at the steel mill, the smell from the desulph station. SO2

AND...to CAP this post off (hardee har har) I just opened an Esk Sauv Blanc, Hawkes Bay, 2004, screwcap, bought for $9.99 today on sale down from over $20, and it was the most sulphury smelling wine I've ever encountered. Holy hot springs! I'm drinking it now - it has subsided, yes, but is still affected on the nose and the palate too

[James Roscoe]

I realize this is a resurrected thread, but I keep coming back to it thinking that "Bucko" has returned.

I nearly fell for it too Howie, Suppose we miss the old F**T?

Same reaction here. (sigh)

By a bit sulphury, I mean: when i opened the cap, a whiff of the fires of hell shot up my nose, making me sneeze and my eyes water. I had that wine today after being in the fridge overnight, and it smells and tastes clean

Again, I am NOT talking about rubbery or skunk or garlic or anything like that -- just sulphur, like I remember from when I worked at the steel mill, the smell from the desulph station. SO2

AND...to CAP this post off (hardee har har) I just opened an Esk Sauv Blanc, Hawkes Bay, 2004, screwcap, bought for $9.99 today on sale down from over $20, and it was the most sulphury smelling wine I've ever encountered. Holy hot springs! I'm drinking it now - it has subsided, yes, but is still affected on the nose and the palate too

Craig,

I was under the impression that the problems associated with screwcaps were reductive aromas such as gunflint, not straight SO2; at least that's what the AWRI closure trials referred to. Excess straight SO2 could presumably be remedied by just using less at bottling. I hope someone more technically informed will chime in.

I agree with others that have posted here, I would rather producers learn to bottle under screwcap and suffer the occasional (completely reversible by splashing) reductive problem than deal with the insanity of a 5-10% loss from cork taint. I am encouraging my producers to send me wine under screwcap, the very first just told me that he will do so this year, hooray (or Bravo, perhaps).

Oliver,

You are correct in your assumptions - the AWRI study dealt with sulfide problems associated with a wine that was known to have mercaptan problems PRIOR to bottling . . .

I think there is a tendency for winemakers to not alter their SO2 levels when bottling screw cap wines vs bottling non screw cap wines. This may be a problem if the wines are opened shortly after bottling, because, from what I have seen, screw capped wines will initially retain their free SO2 levels longer and at higher levels than wines bottled under cork or synthetics . . . Therefore, if you bottle at the same free SO2 level, this may be more noticable in the early stages of that bottled wine. This should subside by 6 months or so, unless the levels were very high or you were using sara tin vs saranex liners - the former allows for less trans ox and therefore will most likely hold onto that free even longer . . .

Hope that helps. Cheers!

By a bit sulphury, I mean: when i opened the cap, a whiff of the fires of hell shot up my nose, making me sneeze and my eyes water. I had that wine today after being in the fridge overnight, and it smells and tastes clean

Again, I am NOT talking about rubbery or skunk or garlic or anything like that -- just sulphur, like I remember from when I worked at the steel mill, the smell from the desulph station. SO2

AND...to CAP this post off (hardee har har) I just opened an Esk Sauv Blanc, Hawkes Bay, 2004, screwcap, bought for $9.99 today on sale down from over $20, and it was the most sulphury smelling wine I've ever encountered. Holy hot springs! I'm drinking it now - it has subsided, yes, but is still affected on the nose and the palate too

Craig,

I was under the impression that the problems associated with screwcaps were reductive aromas such as gunflint, not straight SO2; at least that's what the AWRI closure trials referred to. Excess straight SO2 could presumably be remedied by just using less at bottling. I hope someone more technically informed will chime in.

I agree with others that have posted here, I would rather producers learn to bottle under screwcap and suffer the occasional (completely reversible by splashing) reductive problem than deal with the insanity of a 5-10% loss from cork taint. I am encouraging my producers to send me wine under screwcap, the very first just told me that he will do so this year, hooray (or Bravo, perhaps).

I'm quite possibly out of my mind saying this -- but i am calling gunflint and SO2 the same smell, essentially...

it is the burn in the nose and on the palate that convinces me it is SO2 from what I have read and heard.

BTW this Esk River was a 2004 - that has been sittign on teh ANBl shelves far tyoo logn and is thus on sale

could it possibly be oversulphited that much? 3 years worth?

Thanks, Larry.

Preservation of SO2 levels is one of the primary benefits of Stelvin, isn't it?

Something about this whole debate confuses me; the only sensible criticism I've read of screwcaps is that they can create a reductive environment, but if the possibility exists to control the amount of O2 that enters through the liner, why don't they just engineer different closures for different wine types. There are two, but presumably you could 'dial in' the amount of transmission you wanted. Then the only criticism would be 'we're anxious about how the consumer will react,' which shouldn't take too long to dissipate.

I'm quite possibly out of my mind saying this -- but i am calling gunflint and SO2 the same smell, essentially...

it is the burn in the nose and on the palate that convinces me it is SO2 from what I have read and heard.

BTW this Esk River was a 2004 - that has been sittign on teh ANBl shelves far tyoo logn and is thus on sale

could it possibly be oversulphited that much? 3 years worth?

I think it's important to distinguish between them, though. Tom Stevenson states that flint is a varietal characteristic of Sauvignon Blanc due to pyrazines, although I was under the impression it was also one of the sulfur compounds formed reductively. If this is true it has nothing to do with the closure, in other words.

In fact I find that very overt SB varietal character sometimes reminds me of SO2, and it takes me a minute to be clear what I'm smelling.

More at http://www.wine-pages.com/guests/tom/taste6.htm

God, look at the number of hits on this subject. If I wasn't so crazy I might revisit my old delusion that this issue is symbolic of a much more important psychic archetype than simply a question of bottle closure.

What interests me the most is the second flow chart on the ETS Lab bulletin.
Mercaptans (lower concentration, more offensive odors) oxidizing into disulfides (higher concentration, less offensive odors). During bottle aging disulfides could be reduced back into mercaptans.
Being an amateur winemaker I have come to the understanding a key component to successful winemaking is “timing” (not only in the cellar but in the vineyard). Scientists know very little about the science of bottle aging. Is bottle aging a complex, step-wise, inter- related series of chemical reactions? During bottle aging is a “fixed” or a “variable” amount of oxygen ingress best? Is the timing of the oxygen ingress important? Surely because of screw-caps and other alternate enclosures which can be designed and engineered to allow a “controlled” and “measurable” amount of oxygen ingress into a bottle during bottle aging, scientists will gain some insight on all of this.

Salute

I think it's important to distinguish between them, though. Tom Stevenson states that flint is a varietal characteristic of Sauvignon Blanc due to pyrazines, although I was under the impression it was also one of the sulfur compounds formed reductively. If this is true it has nothing to do with the closure, in other words.

In fact I find that very overt SB varietal character sometimes reminds me of SO2, and it takes me a minute to be clear what I'm smelling.

More at http://www.wine-pages.com/guests/tom/taste6.htm

Well, I've heard some fairly prominent wine experts say there is no such thing as flinty varietal character. It is just sulphur from using sulphur compounds in the process. i.e. it's a myth. I like the romance of flinty terroir, but the science is very dicey.

I've been in the middle of debates about a sulphury wine - is it terroir or defective? It's usually Riesling, but it has been Sancerre...

It's similar to the South African debate "Is this smoked meat/tar/cigarette ashtray character terroir or diseased vines/bad winemaking?"

But hold on - that's for another thread when this one is "done"