Screw top wines being ruined by sulphidisation?

I have been known to refer to a flinty/mineral quality (grin, wink). Anyhows found this (one has to scroll down).....................>

http://www.winebusiness.com/ReferenceLi ... taId=39044

Well, I've heard some fairly prominent wine experts say there is no such thing as flinty varietal character. It is just sulphur from using sulphur compounds in the process. i.e. it's a myth. I like the romance of flinty terroir, but the science is very dicey.

I've been in the middle of debates about a sulphury wine - is it terroir or defective? It's usually Riesling, but it has been Sancerre...

Tom Stevenson is a very prominent 'wine expert.' It should be noted that there are two authoritative references to flint, one varietal and one from a sulfur compound.

I'm not sure where the idea of 'flinty terroir' comes from, romantic or otherwise, but if the wine is in fact 'sulphury' I don't see that it has to do with terroir.

Well, I've heard some fairly prominent wine experts say there is no such thing as flinty varietal character. It is just sulphur from using sulphur compounds in the process. i.e. it's a myth. I like the romance of flinty terroir, but the science is very dicey.

I've been in the middle of debates about a sulphury wine - is it terroir or defective? It's usually Riesling, but it has been Sancerre...

Tom Stevenson is a very prominent 'wine expert.' It should be noted that there are two authoritative references to flint, one varietal and one from a sulfur compound.

I'm not sure where the idea of 'flinty terroir' comes from, romantic or otherwise, but if the wine is in fact 'sulphury' I don't see that it has to do with terroir.

Sure Tom is a well known writer, I have his books. But I have no idea if he is a chemist/scientist...or whether he even truly understands that aspect. Perhaps he does. I know his big book has an excellent summary of the famous wine soils.

We were taught in the Sommelier program that the flinty character of Sancerre/Pouilly Fume comes from the silex soil.

I found this at http://www.linerandelsen.com/spfocussanc.html, a special focus on Sancerre:

"The first and most assertive is the silex soil, marked by outcroppings of flint on a base of clay and limestone. Wines from this soil type are often less elegant but offer an especially captivating and intense mineral bouquet reminiscent of gunflint and smoke."

But the whole idea of tasting the soil to see what wine flavours will arise from it has been called into question, to say the least. Does wine from iron rich soil taste of iron? Does it even have elevated iron levels? No, is what I understand to be the current scientific position on this.

Believe me, I'm a terroir guy all the way, in the old terroir vs technology battle. I want to believe. But I also want to see the science prove that the soil chemistry translates literally to the wine. And I guess it doesn't...

I think it's important to distinguish between them, though. Tom Stevenson states that flint is a varietal characteristic of Sauvignon Blanc due to pyrazines, although I was under the impression it was also one of the sulfur compounds formed reductively. If this is true it has nothing to do with the closure, in other words.

In fact I find that very overt SB varietal character sometimes reminds me of SO2, and it takes me a minute to be clear what I'm smelling.

More at http://www.wine-pages.com/guests/tom/taste6.htm

Well, I've heard some fairly prominent wine experts say there is no such thing as flinty varietal character. It is just sulphur from using sulphur compounds in the process. i.e. it's a myth. I like the romance of flinty terroir, but the science is very dicey.

I've been in the middle of debates about a sulphury wine - is it terroir or defective? It's usually Riesling, but it has been Sancerre...

It's similar to the South African debate "Is this smoked meat/tar/cigarette ashtray character terroir or diseased vines/bad winemaking?"

But hold on - that's for another thread when this one is "done"

Craig,

With regard to your examples, smoked meat, tar, etc. can't be measured. One can measure SO2. So a lab test can confirm or dispute whether or not the flintiness is SO2. That's the difference between a subjective opinion and an objective analysis.

Craig,

With regard to your examples, smoked meat, tar, etc. can't be measured. One can measure SO2. So a lab test can confirm or dispute whether or not the flintiness is SO2. That's the difference between a subjective opinion and an objective analysis.

I'll have to get myself a lab!

Craig,

With regard to your examples, smoked meat, tar, etc. can't be measured. One can measure SO2. So a lab test can confirm or dispute whether or not the flintiness is SO2. That's the difference between a subjective opinion and an objective analysis.

I'll have to get myself a lab!

Not really, a little iodine, sodium hydroxide, wine, a pipette, a measuring device, plus a thermometer and you can do it at home...

Kidding aside, my point is this: when a wine is judged to contain a technical flaw, it should be lab tested to prove or disprove the flaw, especially when there is so much obvious confusion over terms like sulfur, sulfides, sulfites, sulfurous compounds, not to mention the use of an f or ph in the spelling, and not to mention the various aromas of flint (phlint?), rubber, eggs, onions, and all manner of off odors.

Sure Tom is a well known writer, I have his books. But I have no idea if he is a chemist/scientist...or whether he even truly understands that aspect. Perhaps he does. I know his big book has an excellent summary of the famous wine soils.

We were taught in the Sommelier program that the flinty character of Sancerre/Pouilly Fume comes from the silex soil.

I found this at http://www.linerandelsen.com/spfocussanc.html, a special focus on Sancerre:

"The first and most assertive is the silex soil, marked by outcroppings of flint on a base of clay and limestone. Wines from this soil type are often less elegant but offer an especially captivating and intense mineral bouquet reminiscent of gunflint and smoke."

But the whole idea of tasting the soil to see what wine flavours will arise from it has been called into question, to say the least. Does wine from iron rich soil taste of iron? Does it even have elevated iron levels? No, is what I understand to be the current scientific position on this.

Believe me, I'm a terroir guy all the way, in the old terroir vs technology battle. I want to believe. But I also want to see the science prove that the soil chemistry translates literally to the wine. And I guess it doesn't...

Craig,

I think you're conflating two things here. If Stevenson is right, the 'flinty' character comes from pyrazine/s found in the grapes, and it is a fact that SB contains this chemical. No-one here is suggesting that the flint in Sancerre soils somehow directly transports into the grapes.

I am quite sure that different soil types give different flavors and structure in wine, for example in the two major areas in Barolo, but there is certainly criticism that this is caused somehow directly by minerals migrating through the vine to the fruit (eg in the Oxford Companion). It doesn't have to be caused directly, of course, but it's being caused somehow.

.... Believe me, I'm a terroir guy all the way, in the old terroir vs technology battle. I want to believe. But I also want to see the science prove that the soil chemistry translates literally to the wine. And I guess it doesn't...

.... I am quite sure that different soil types give different flavors and structure in wine, for example in the two major areas in Barolo, but there is certainly criticism that this is caused somehow directly by minerals migrating through the vine to the fruit (eg in the Oxford Companion). It doesn't have to be caused directly, of course, but it's being caused somehow.

Gee, this is going way off topic, but my take on this is that the rocks and minerals in the base rock (if any) and together with organic matter in the top soil , affect the growth and vigor of the vine. Of course the vines are picking up nutrients from the type of base rock and soils they are grown in. And they do translate to flavour - but not rock, mineral or soil flavour, but of the grape's varietal flavour or lack of it. Plant your vines on soils that encourage vigorous growth and you will get large vines with many bunches with grapes that are dilute. Plant your wines on particularly ultramafic soils, e.g. serpentine, and they won't even grow to much higher than bonsai size before they die, if they grow at all.
Rock and soils are so important to grapevines but they don't add rock or mineral or soil flavours. Think back to basic gardening and adding lime or potassium or compost to your soils - it is to balance the nutrients in the soils and make the plants grow better. Does it change the taste of your vegetable crops? Or does it just make the vegetable's flavours more intense?
People rarely talk about phenolics of the grapes, but they are just as important as sugar and acids when the grapes are growing and on determining when to pick. Perhaps it is the phenolics that people are translating to what they call 'mineral' or 'rocks' in wine.
Cheers,
Sue

Sue wrote:
Gee, this is going way off topic, but my take on this ……….

Nicely said Sue!

Salute

I think the best conversations invariably go 'way off topic,' and what is this if not a conversation?

so i'm writing an article about this for my local weekly paper - i'm trying to make it funny and educational. we'll see. When it is published, I'll post it here.

its working title is "Screw You, Sulphur"

i'd post it here for comments first but I couldn't handle all the editing

so i'll post it warts and all

but my main reco at the end is "Don't buy screwcapped white wines from the ANBl that are over 1 yr old"

and that is based purely on my own experiences with sulphury wines (whatever form of sulphur I am smelling)

.... but my main reco at the end is "Don't buy screwcapped white wines from the ANBl that are over 1 yr old"

Craig, I have no idea what the ANBl is, but cannot support your theory, which seems to be saying that screwcapped white wines over 1 year old are stuffed. That is not my experience at all, and I guess I am in a place where screwcapped white wines are utterly common place and sulfury wines are not (common place).

so i'm writing an article about this for my local weekly paper - i'm trying to make it funny and educational. we'll see. When it is published, I'll post it here.

its working title is "Screw You, Sulphur"

i'd post it here for comments first but I couldn't handle all the editing

so i'll post it warts and all

but my main reco at the end is "Don't buy screwcapped white wines from the ANBl that are over 1 yr old"

and that is based purely on my own experiences with sulphury wines (whatever form of sulphur I am smelling)

Don't know if it will be a funny article, but in my view, your "reco" would be way off base, if not unsubstantiated.

but my main reco at the end is "Don't buy screwcapped white wines from the ANBl that are over 1 yr old"
and that is based purely on my own experiences with sulphury wines (whatever form of sulphur I am smelling)

As others note, that's not been the experience of most wine drinkers, hope that you make that clear.

I think the best conversations invariably go 'way off topic,' and what is this if not a conversation?

Indeed, nicely put.

I'm with Sue and Oliver, one doesn't have to believe minerals are drawn through roots to accept that terroir does indeed make a difference.

I'm just doing my job

i taste more wines than my readers, and my job is to help filter them for them, and, based on the older screwcapped wines we have on our shelves, there is a problem. i do explain that it can be countered by aeration. but it is still a pain.

oh, and by the way, ANBL is Alcool New Brunswick Liquor (our gov't monpoply, and we are the only bilingual province, hence the dual name)

cheers!

Craig,

1. Producers who use screwcaps are trying to spare their customers the 5%+ of bad bottles caused by bark corks. There is no other motive for the change.

2. There may be an occasional reductive problem caused by the use of screwcaps, but the authorities (except for Paul White, who seems to have a grudge) tell us that it isn't due to the closure. For example, two paragraphs from Professor Sakkie Pretorius, AWRI managing director, as published in Harper's:

'It is surely obvious to all in the wine business that the overwhelming majority of wines closed with screwcaps do not show post-bottling reduction, and therefore we further suggest that claims to the contrary ... should be treated with skepticism.'

'Our position, which we believe is undeniable, remains that the propensity of a wine to develop 'reductive' aromas post-bottling is a function of the wine, and that post-bottling reduction is not the 'fault' of the closure but may be exacerbated by the closure if the wine has a propensity for such aromas to develop. A corollary is that the propensity of a wine to develop such aromas can be affected by the winemaking process, but that is not to blame the winemaker for post-bottling reduction.

3. It seems likely, as has been suggested here, that new liners will be developed that allow controlled oxygen transmission, which will reduce this problem still further. In any case, many of these aromas are reversible by splashing or leaving the wine open for a bit, which is not the case with TCA.

4. Given all this, why on earth would you publish something that drives your readers back to bark corks, a closure with a known, abysmal rate of failure? What are you trying to achieve?

[David M. Bueker]

I'm just doing my job

You job is to misinform readers based on half-truths and incomplete judgements?

That's an interesting take on journalism. You might try getting a job with CNN.

Anyway, Tom Stevenson explains the pyrazine chemistry thing in a recent issue of World of Fine Wine. I don't have the issue handy (they are too heavy to cart around while traveling), but he gives a somewhat detailed explanation.

As long as “living” yeast and bacteria strains are used to produce wines, producing a completely sulfur compound “free” wine is almost impossible. Besides some of these sulfur compounds within certain concentrations add a positive attribute to the wines. But then again one can treat every wine produced with ascorbic acid and copper solution, maybe in the future instead of using “living” yeast and bacteria to produce wine only the “appropriate” enzymes will be used to produce the “ideal” wine.
Because there are now numerous enclosures to choose from, the only person capable of “choosing” the right one is those who know the wine the best, the winemaker. It’s the “last” of the winemaking decisions that he/she has to make. Hopefully he/she will make the right one.

Salute

'Suspended Animation' Induced In Mice With Sewer Gas: Effects Are Reversible
sciencedaily.com

ScienceDaily (Mar. 25, 2008) — Low doses of the toxic gas responsible for the unpleasant odor of rotten eggs can safely and reversibly depress both metabolism and aspects of cardiovascular function in mice, producing a suspended-animation-like state. In the April 2008 issue of the journal Anesthesiology, Massachusetts General Hospital (MGH) reseachers report that effects seen in earlier studies of hydrogen sulfide do not depend on a reduction in body temperature and include a substantial decrease in heart rate without a drop in blood pressure.

"Hydrogen sulfide is the stinky gas that can kill workers who encounter it in sewers; but when adminstered to mice in small, controlled doses, within minutes it produces what appears to be totally reversible metabolic suppression," says Warren Zapol, MD, chief of Anesthesia and Critical Care at MGH and senior author of the Anesthesiology study. "This is as close to instant suspended animation as you can get, and the preservation of cardiac contraction, blood pressure and organ perfusion is remarkable"...

Inhaled Hydrogen Sulfide: A Rapidly Reversible Inhibitor of Cardiac and Metabolic Function in the Mouse
anesthesiology.org

..."Hydrogen sulfide is the stinky gas that can kill workers who encounter it in sewers; but when adminstered to mice in small, controlled doses, within minutes it produces what appears to be totally reversible metabolic suppression," says Warren Zapol, MD...

Does this mean I now a a use for that 2005 Cab Franc that I made?

When I first saw a screw top wine and the campaign that went with them my first thought was, "If it aint broke, don't fix it."

rwj

Robert as wine retailer in Australia the consensus here is that it was well and truly broken , this might reflect the pecking order of Australian wines on the world stage . As older more established winery's with lager markets will naturally have better relationships with cork suppliers thus getting better quality corks. The accepted industry standard for corked wines in Australia seams to be 3 to 8% , my own observations are at 3 to 4% corked . But the point that gets left behind in most commentaries is that the screw cap or stelvin closure is just one alternative ( ok it has gained a very large take up in Australia and New Zealand ) and we will see more and more alternatives coming on the market .

As to Screw top wines being ruined by sulphidisation , i think that this will be solved in time , Sulpher levels in might have to be adjusted as all the implications of using this type of closure are not known . I personally like corks and have found that my drinking windows for wines have been stretched as a result of screw caps, it is like learning a new language without crib notes , I also find that if you bang the side of the cap it will pinch and oxidze , this happens quite often .

Peter kaplin