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Met a cork salesman yesterday

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Met a cork salesman yesterday

by Jenise » Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:50 pm

Went to a large dinner at a local winery last night, and one of the little sideshows before dinner was their cork guy giving a presentation. He reps the cork maker Ganau, whose U.S. headquarters are in Sonoma and whose cork forests are in Sardinia, and his shtick is that Ganau sterilizes sheets of cork in autoclaves (120 degrees F) to reduce the possibility of TCA to some small number, I believe around 1%. It's interesting that the brochure I brought home with me describes the process and throws around words like "integrity" and "trust" but does not repeat the number he mentioned nor put into print any any actual tested or guaranteed not-to-exceed rates of contamination.

Anyway, it wouldn't have been any problem to listen to the presentation except that he opened his presentation by saying, "Opponents want you to believe that the world is running out of cork. THAT'S A LIE!" That was followed by two more "lies" involving the effectiveness of alternative closures, including Stelvin, and the rate of TCA found in corks. To support that, he made the astonishing claim that he's been in this business and a wine lover since 1981, and in all those years has only had two corked bottles of wine.

That's right, TWO.

At which point I had to interrupt and tell him I've had four corked bottles from this winery alone, "and that's out of about six cases I've bought in four years". He responded that they've only supplied this winery for two and a half years, so his corks were probably not to blame for those problems. I said "Fine, but what I'm actually taking issue with is your claim of having only two corked wines in 26 years. That's of all the wine you drin, where I've had twice your two from this winery alone, and furthermore I run into a corked bottle about every other month." He then said patronizingly that I was probably confusing oxidation with TCA. To which I said, "Not even close. I'm entirely familiar with both." "Well, they're very similar," he persisted, to which I had to reply, "I don't agree with you at all. I blind taste with a lot of wine geeks and we never have trouble discerning between the two. We're talking prunes vs. weeds."

He didn't even address that, just continued the propaganda. Another claim I reacted strongly to was that waitrons open screwcapped bottles where customers in restaurants can't see them because they're so embarrassed. I interjected that the fault here was a matter of education, not effectiveness, but he ignored me and proceeded to fudge a lot of facts and implying that screwcapped wines were more likely to be defective than not. He completely disregarded the difference between drink-now wines and wines you might age for 20 years, implying that concerns about the latter were totally present in the former, such that any screwcapped wine you buy is probably already damaged. He did such a good job with this disinformation that later, at dinner, an elderly couple at my table (but who had been in a different group for this presentation) stated that from now on in restaurants they would refuse any bottle they ordered that turned out to be screwcapped.

Anyway, the guy made me livid. What a flaming butthole! It's absolutely fair that the cork industry gets to make a case for their product--I'm by no means anti-cork for wines meant to age, but the extent to which this guy spewed garbage was egregious. He's a danger to his own cause.
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Re: Met a cork salesman yesterday

by Hoke » Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:18 pm

You might think the guy is egregious, Jenise: I'd say he's fairly representative.

What's the old saw about your level of belief in something depends upon whether it impacts your paycheck? I've found the vast majority of cork-pushers (both directly employed by the cork industry and some who were influenced by the cork industry, as well as, I'm sad to say, some devout believers in corkology) to be perfectly willing to twist things around to the point of telling misleading stories, or of downright telling lies to people.

To me, your guy is just another example of that. ***sigh*** He's a paid apologist, a propagandist, for cork, and seems he'll tell any half-truth or all-lie it takes to sell his product. Which, of course, makes the honest ones that much more difficult to believe, or even distinguish from the liers.

A fellow wine educator, who will remain nameless, is immensely knowledgeable and well-informed about all things wine. This educator, after being paid by the cork industry, publicly defended cork...aggressively so too....on several occasions. The person never once, as far as I know, indicated that this was a paid endorsement, which gave me cause for concern. But what actually concerned me more was....miraculously, all of a sudden (the sudden being the free trip to Portugal and the handsome paycheck), this person was spouting some of the same tired old cliches and apologies and excuses, and engaging in the same old tired dodging and weaving to justify the use of cork, and was actively defaming alternative closures in the process. Painful to see how objectivity can be so easily compromised, and the person being compromised doesn't even seem to be aware of it.
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Re: Met a cork salesman yesterday

by Bob Ross » Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:30 pm

I only hope this fellow isn't fairly representing the position of his company, Jenise. I'm a strong advocate of alternative closures, but the battle should be fought out on substantive grounds, not against straw man arguments and half truths.

Thanks for the report. I think you would be doing a great service to this fellow's employer by sending the company a copy of your post.

Regards, Bob
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Re: Met a cork salesman yesterday

by Dale Williams » Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:33 pm

Of course, he might be telling the truth re the 2 bottles since 1981. If I was a cork manufacturer I'd give prospective salesmen TCA sensitivity tests, and only hire the grossly insensitive. That way they can defend cork in good conscience.
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Re: Met a cork salesman yesterday

by Cynthia Wenslow » Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:52 pm

Dale Williams wrote:TCA sensitivity tests


That is exactly what I was going to say, Dale. A man I regularly drink wine with has absolutely no sensitivity to it at all. The rest of us just gaze on him in amazement! When we all agree that a wine is corked, he says things like "It's a little one-dimensional, but other than that it seems ok." :?

Edited to add: Jenise, you go girl! You're my new role model!
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Re: Met a cork salesman yesterday

by Hoke » Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:58 pm

That is exactly what I was going to say, Dale. A man I regularly drink wine with has absolutely no sensitivity to it at all. The rest of us just gaze on him in amazement! When we all agree that a wine is corked, he says things like "It's a little one-dimensional, but other than that it seems ok."


Makes you wonder what he is tasting in a regular wine, doesn't it, Cynthia?

Odds are it's not even close to what you're tasting. :P
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Re: Met a cork salesman yesterday

by Jenise » Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:25 pm

I think you would be doing a great service to this fellow's employer by sending the company a copy of your post.


Unfortunately, I'm just cynical enough to think they'd only read the part about the elderly couple's new religion and go "hurray".
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Re: Met a cork salesman yesterday

by Cynthia Wenslow » Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:28 pm

Jenise wrote:Unfortunately, I'm just cynical enough to think they'd only read the part about the elderly couple's new religion and go "hurray".


Remember my trademarked slogan...... "Just because you are cynical doesn't mean you are wrong!"
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Re: Met a cork salesman yesterday

by Jenise » Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:48 pm

this person was spouting some of the same tired old cliches and apologies and excuses, and engaging in the same old tired dodging and weaving to justify the use of cork, and was actively defaming alternative closures in the process.


You know, even if my guy hadn't pissed me off at the getgo with the three "lies" and implication that the TCA problem is grossly over-exaggerated and a victim of mistaken identity, the extent to which he sleazily demonized other closures in order to make his product look good would have given me room for complaint enough.
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Re: Met a cork salesman yesterday

by Mike Filigenzi » Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:58 pm

Cynthia Wenslow wrote:
Dale Williams wrote:TCA sensitivity tests


That is exactly what I was going to say, Dale. A man I regularly drink wine with has absolutely no sensitivity to it at all. The rest of us just gaze on him in amazement! When we all agree that a wine is corked, he says things like "It's a little one-dimensional, but other than that it seems ok." :?

Edited to add: Jenise, you go girl! You're my new role model!


That would be me as well, Cynthia. I've been through a pretty rigorous testing procedure as part of pre-qualification for getting into a study on cork taint at UC Davis. After the testing procedure, I received a breakdown on how my TCA sensitivity compared to the rest of the people who were tested. Whereas the low end of the range was somewhere in the 5 part per trillion zone, I was off the chart on the high end. I think I've only been able to really taste TCA in a wine once, and that was last month. Wines that are obviously corked to other people just seem lacking to me - "one-dimensional" would somewhat describe it. I seem to get most of the other components of wine that most people taste, but I just don't seem to have the TCA smell receptors.

Sounds like I should apply for a job selling corks!!
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Re: Met a cork salesman yesterday

by Jenise » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:35 pm

Mike, beware, things can change. I too used to be insensitive to it, then one day that light flashed ON and I've not only become sensitive to it, I often identify it before others do. But it wasn't a gradual process, but a change just from one day to the next so far as I know. I'm sure I'm better off this way, but not neccessarily happier....
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Re: Met a cork salesman yesterday

by Howie Hart » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:49 pm

Jenise wrote:...and his shtick is that Ganau sterilizes sheets of cork in autoclaves (120 degrees F) to reduce the possibility of TCA to some small number, I believe around 1%....

Curious - should that be 120 degrees C?
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Re: Met a cork salesman yesterday

by Jenise » Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:00 pm

Howie Hart wrote:
Jenise wrote:...and his shtick is that Ganau sterilizes sheets of cork in autoclaves (120 degrees F) to reduce the possibility of TCA to some small number, I believe around 1%....

Curious - should that be 120 degrees C?


Howie, yes, my typo. That's C.
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Re: Met a cork salesman yesterday

by Andrew Shults » Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:11 am

Jenise wrote:dinner at a local winery


Please, name names. If this winery buys that salesman's propoganda (and inflicts it on their customers), I wouldn't trust them to make a wine worth my money.
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Re: Met a cork salesman yesterday

by Jenise » Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:52 am

Andrew Shults wrote:
Jenise wrote:dinner at a local winery


Please, name names. If this winery buys that salesman's propoganda (and inflicts it on their customers), I wouldn't trust them to make a wine worth my money.


Andrew, naah, don't blame it on the winery. It's a small, local under-10,000 case winery that makes above average, ungobby wines (by Washington standards) and which I support by attending these events and buying several cases a year because I like the winery's style of winemaking and am a strong believer in supporting local enterprise. Too, they have to buy their corks from somebody, and for all I know this yahoo is the only game in town.
Last edited by Jenise on Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Met a cork salesman yesterday

by Mike Filigenzi » Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:21 pm

Jenise wrote:Mike, beware, things can change. I too used to be insensitive to it, then one day that light flashed ON and I've not only become sensitive to it, I often identify it before others do. But it wasn't a gradual process, but a change just from one day to the next so far as I know. I'm sure I'm better off this way, but not neccessarily happier....


I keep hoping it will change. The fact that I actually managed to smell the stuff once in the last six months or so is a good sign.
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Re: Met a cork salesman yesterday

by Mike B. » Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:20 pm

Dale Williams wrote:Of course, he might be telling the truth re the 2 bottles since 1981. If I was a cork manufacturer I'd give prospective salesmen TCA sensitivity tests, and only hire the grossly insensitive. That way they can defend cork in good conscience.


See, and here I thought that maybe he's only had a couple dozen or so bottles of wine since 1981.
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Re: Met a cork salesman yesterday

by DrEdwardo » Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:40 pm

Hoke wrote:A fellow wine educator, who will remain nameless, is immensely knowledgeable and well-informed about all things wine. This educator, after being paid by the cork industry, publicly defended cork...aggressively so too....on several occasions. The person never once, as far as I know, indicated that this was a paid endorsement, which gave me cause for concern. But what actually concerned me more was....miraculously, all of a sudden (the sudden being the free trip to Portugal and the handsome paycheck), this person was spouting some of the same tired old cliches and apologies and excuses, and engaging in the same old tired dodging and weaving to justify the use of cork, and was actively defaming alternative closures in the process. Painful to see how objectivity can be so easily compromised, and the person being compromised doesn't even seem to be aware of it [emphasis mine].


I can't believe this troll went unanswered by this wine educator! :shock: Either he is unaware of this post or is showing extreme discretion (which may be why he has been around for such a long time and is still so well respected).

Had a similar post been made in a certain other forum I am sure the thread would have been shut down in under 19 hours and the poster banned! :wink:

Edwardo
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Re: Met a cork salesman yesterday

by David M. Bueker » Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:19 pm

So DrEdwardo, as the new forum arbitor of all things right and just (in your first post no less) thanks for coming in and judging this to be less of a police state than that other forum. We appreciate it, and are glad of the apparent difference.
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Re: Met a cork salesman yesterday

by Dave C » Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:47 pm

Now I know I buy at the lower price end of the market - but 10 or 15 years ago or so when even 5 quid (10 dollar) basic Vin de Table wines had corks - not screws - it got so bad for me pouring wine down the sink so often that - and please don't judge me on this - for about two or three years I only bought boxed wine which at the time was becoming more common.

I just couldn't - at the time - keep pouring wine away.

In fact if you look on these Forums you will see I've suggested a Wine Shoe topic 'Screw Red Wine!' - to cover issues like this.

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Re: Met a cork salesman yesterday

by Ed Draves » Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:24 am

DrEdwardo wrote:
Hoke wrote:A fellow wine educator, who will remain nameless, is immensely knowledgeable and well-informed about all things wine. This educator, after being paid by the cork industry, publicly defended cork...aggressively so too....on several occasions. The person never once, as far as I know, indicated that this was a paid endorsement, which gave me cause for concern. But what actually concerned me more was....miraculously, all of a sudden (the sudden being the free trip to Portugal and the handsome paycheck), this person was spouting some of the same tired old cliches and apologies and excuses, and engaging in the same old tired dodging and weaving to justify the use of cork, and was actively defaming alternative closures in the process. Painful to see how objectivity can be so easily compromised, and the person being compromised doesn't even seem to be aware of it [emphasis mine].


I can't believe this troll went unanswered by this wine educator! :shock: Either he is unaware of this post or is showing extreme discretion (which may be why he has been around for such a long time and is still so well respected).

Had a similar post been made in a certain other forum I am sure the thread would have been shut down in under 19 hours and the poster banned! :wink:

Edwardo

Welcome Edwardo. Hoke left the wine educator nameless but if you know of an educator who fits the description, please share.
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Re: Met a cork salesman yesterday

by DrEdwardo » Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:57 am

Randy R wrote:(to no one in particular)
What was that movie about the guy (Jack Black) who thought his new girlfriend looked like Gwyneth Paltrow but she was actually... not. If one can't detect TSA, maybe it means that all wines are great for you to enjoy ;) I'm not sure I have any detection capability at all. I don't recall the last time anyone sent a wine back (or said "corked" at a private tasting).

So how do you learn about this, being as you would need to taste corked and non corked bottles of the same wine? [emphasis mine]


Precisely! When I am in a restaurant with people who are fairly new to wine and I encounter a corked wine (my track record is 1 in 12-15 bottles) I insist on keeping the glass of the duff wine to let my tablemates smell and taste the difference. Often times I even offer my server the same opportunity. Unfortunately, there are too many servers who don't know what a corked bottle is!

What takes much more conviction is to send back a bottle that does not have the give away wet cardboard/mushroom taste/aroma but is otherwise muted. This is somewhat easier if one is already familiar with the particular wine but is really challenging if it is the first time one has ever tasted it - given I intentionally try unfamiliar wines at restaurants this is an issue.

I am very sensitive to TCA and am very confident when spotting it. Because of the frequent (at least to me) encountering of it I am equally confident in sending back a bottle, even when the fault is of the "muted" fruit variety - at least for the wines that I am familiar with. I am more reluctant if it is the first time I've tasted the wine. If, given the varietal/blend and vintage, I am expecting something fruitier and it definitely isn't I wouldn't hesitate to send that back either. Otherwise, I would probably grin and bear it - and likely never try that wine again. A vintner's nightmare. Which is why I strongly support screwcaps.

Edwardo
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Re: Met a cork salesman yesterday

by Hoke » Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:37 pm

DrEdwardo wrote:
Hoke wrote:A fellow wine educator, who will remain nameless, is immensely knowledgeable and well-informed about all things wine. This educator, after being paid by the cork industry, publicly defended cork...aggressively so too....on several occasions. The person never once, as far as I know, indicated that this was a paid endorsement, which gave me cause for concern. But what actually concerned me more was....miraculously, all of a sudden (the sudden being the free trip to Portugal and the handsome paycheck), this person was spouting some of the same tired old cliches and apologies and excuses, and engaging in the same old tired dodging and weaving to justify the use of cork, and was actively defaming alternative closures in the process. Painful to see how objectivity can be so easily compromised, and the person being compromised doesn't even seem to be aware of it [emphasis mine].


I can't believe this troll went unanswered by this wine educator! :shock: Either he is unaware of this post or is showing extreme discretion (which may be why he has been around for such a long time and is still so well respected).

Had a similar post been made in a certain other forum I am sure the thread would have been shut down in under 19 hours and the poster banned! :wink:

Edwardo


Simple, Dr. Edwardo: the person alluded to does not come around this forum (as far as I am aware). If that were the case, I would welcome the response...from that person or any other in the same situation.

I've actually discussed the issue/situation with the person, and explained how I felt. Now that the person is not employed by or remunerated by the cork industry, the passion to defend is not as evident as it once was. :D
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Re: Met a cork salesman yesterday

by Bill Spohn » Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:59 pm

David M. Bueker wrote:So DrEdwardo, as the new forum arbitor of all things right and just (in your first post no less) thanks for coming in and judging this to be less of a police state than that other forum. We appreciate it, and are glad of the apparent difference.


I second the welcome and would add that Dr. Ed is a well known and experienced cork soaker from way back.

I agree that 'certain other forums' are less liberal than this one, and before you point it out, I KNOW that should be other 'fora', not forums.....

When are you going to come around and pull some of those corks, Boyo? :mrgreen:
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