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Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike most?

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Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike most?

Varietal
2
10%
Price Point
4
19%
Cultivar
1
5%
Winemaker
1
5%
Your hot button
13
62%
 
Total votes : 21
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Bob Ross

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Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike most?

by Bob Ross » Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:45 pm

As an off shoot of Maria's variety/varietal thread of fascinating trivia albeit perhaps not much profundity, I thought it might be fun to discuss some other jargon words.

This poll is inspired by the following from Howard G. Goldberg, a New York Times wine writer:

In American newspaper wine journalism the word “varietal,” as in the context of "grape varietal," tends to be shunned by editors as geek speak. It has acquired a connotation of pretentiousness and is widely felt to be about a half-cut above the ugly portmanteau word “cultivar” as a no-no.

The "variety"-"varietal" choice poses a dilemma.

I myself have always felt somewhat ill at ease in routinely using “variety,” because the word contains single and plural senses, with the latter feeling stronger --- probably because when I was a tadpole Main Street always offered a so-called variety store (Woolworth’s) and theaters featured variety shows.

"Variety” can be seen as a litmus of writers’ tendencies. Its use suggests that they primarily side with readers’ and buyers' interests. "Varietal" plays to producers and middlemen.

Similarly, writers' use of “price points” (jargon if ever I saw it) instead of “prices” in print and conversation suggests that principally they identify with sellers, not buyers. (This judgment probably will ignite protests, and I will be jailed for disturbing the peace.)


I've added "winemaker" to Howard's list; it is emblematic to me of Winespeak's tendency to run words together.

How about you; what Winespeak jargon turns you off -- or on, as the case may be?
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Re: Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike most?

by David M. Bueker » Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:55 pm

winespeak :twisted:
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Re: Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike most?

by Bob Ross » Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:02 pm

:D
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Re: Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike most?

by Steve Slatcher » Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:39 pm

A price point is not the same as a price. Whether or not those that use the term know what they are talking about is another question.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_point

Phrases I dislike:
"drinking well" (Wines don't drink. I do. And what else would I do with a wine? "Good" seems to be the best alternative)
"fruit driven" (Doesn't that mean "fruity").
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Re: Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike most?

by Paul B. » Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:17 pm

Years ago I probably would have had a short list of pet peeves, but not anymore. I say let wine appreciation have its jargon - every hobby seems to!
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Re: Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike most?

by Ian Sutton » Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:30 pm

Loads, but perhaps 'points' ought to be my nomination :lol:
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Re: Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike most?

by Max Hauser » Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:29 pm

steve.slatcher wrote:A price point is not the same as a price. Whether or not those that use the term know what they are talking about is another question. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_point

Very good point. I've seen that and other examples in online discussions. Contributors willing to use specialty jargon but not actually willing to learn it. (You may well know that current popular understandings of the technical jargon "web" and "hacker" happened the same way. No amount of correction by experts could counter misuse by pop writers at the avant-garde of misconception.)

Wikipedia is apropos: these warnings hold there too, though not in the example above I think. (At recent check of the English-language version, such entries as liqueur, absinthe, and Macaron had serious missing or misleading information; entry under beignet touches on but doesn't make clear that the currently popular US usage differs from the main French meaning; pousse-café entry doesn't even hint that the word is used atypically by US bartenders -- more info, if you're really interested, Here.)
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Re: Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike mo

by Bob Henrick » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:03 pm

Steve, couldn't a wine be fruity, yet be acid driven? In my mind at least it could be. To me fruit driven tells me that the fruit is the main focus of the wine, and that other aspects of the aroma and taste/flavor of the wine remains, but in the background with respect to the fruitiness of the wine.
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Re: Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike most?

by Bob Ross » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:25 pm

Max and Steve, I've struggled a bit with "price point" because I almost invariably include the price I paid for a wine I've written a tasting note for. That price can be misleading -- it is usually the price before discounts and I've found that there is quite a variation in retail prices around the country.

For example, I see that the SB I posted on a few minutes ago cost me $17, but retail elsewhere ranges from $16 to $22.

Recently I've solved the "problem" by linking to Wine Searcher Pro so that folks can check their local prices. No longer any need to mention price points -- folks can figure it out themselves.

[For the record, I used the phrase 32 times in almost 50,000 tasting notes over the years, and as a econ major, it bugged me every time I used it. Thank goodness for WSP. :) ]

Regards, Bob
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Re: Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike most?

by Carl Eppig » Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:38 pm

I don't consider "price point" to be winespeak. The term is used with many if not all commercial products, particularly at the wholesale/distributor level.
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Re: Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike most?

by Bill Hooper » Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:46 pm

One of my most hated terms is 'Rhone Ranger.' Oh god! It makes me wan't to kill.
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Re: Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike most?

by Max Hauser » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:35 pm

Carl Eppig wrote:I don't consider "price point" to be winespeak...

Agreed it's not wine-specific; but shows up there (maybe especially). Restaurants too. It's jargon that bifurcated in meaning. Until a few years ago I saw it used less, and mainly by sophisticated business writers, or business people talking about markets -- à la Wiki. Then a wider population began using it for any kind of price, or anyway a wider meaning of their choice. As usual in these situations, people using it the new way hear the older use too, and don't spot the split.

Dramatic instance: Parameters. Starting around 1980* this word moved out of its longtime mathematical sense into popular jargon, with a distorted meaning -- like constraints. People who don't realize this don't notice the split (the original use overlaps the new sense enough to sound the same to a casual user). To people who do know the real meaning, the difference stands out dramatically. Folks I've seen most exercised about this, repeatedly, aren't mathematicians or lexicographers, but writers, concerned with word nuance. One of them published a usage guide circa 1985 to address "things like people now writing parameters when they mean perimeters but are trying to be cute."

Some have begun doing likewise with nonlinear, when they mean non-monotonic. It seems that technical jargon is catchy. Social scientists and bureaucrats lately, publicly, throw around systemic where it's apt, and where it's not. (Physicians used to be the word's main users, and with point.)


* From popular sources I can show that parameters was not popularly used as of the early 1970s, but haven't pinned down the split more precisely.
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Re: Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike most?

by ClarkDGigHbr » Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:49 am

Dusty tannins.

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Re: Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike most?

by Jenise » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:44 am

Bob, clearly you are the uber geek and I am but a commoner, but what, pray tell, is the issue with "winemaker"? It would seem every winery has one, and when I visit winery sites in search of information I nearly always have the option of clicking on a section called 'winemaker' that tells me something about the winemaker's background. Is this word uncool to use? Have I fallen prey to some form of dimwitted, suck-up jargon by not recognizing that good wines make themselves? I can't underswtand how 'winemaker' is "winespeak" vs. common language. Enlighten please.
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Re: Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike most?

by Covert » Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:30 am

Winespeak is an aspect of mot juste, the exact word or expression for an idea regarding wine beyond a level where a non geek would take it. My father hates French words being sprinkled about in English conversation. :)

In this spirit, “price point” derives from economics, meaning a price level at which some action is beckoned or triggered. The general term “price” does not imply any judgment or consideration of any particular price, in the way that "price point" does.

If a person has a problem with a particular cant, the emotional reaction could be in the vicinity of having a problem with a particular person or specific personality: that is, there is likely an aspect of the annoyed person’s personality that has not been integrated with the “whole” personality. This annoying aspect knocks at the door, interrupting emotional peace to be recognized.

I like Paul’s answer.
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Re: Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike most?

by Bob Parsons Alberta » Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:21 am

"Score, wine score". Does not mean much to me anymore! I used to score many years ago (yup that kind of scoring too) but lately have not been that interested in what others think through their "high score". If Paul B or Bob R for instance rates a wine highly, I am interested `cos I value their judgement. Just don`t give me a score!!
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Re: Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike most?

by Bob Ross » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:33 am

"Bob, clearly you are the uber geek and I am but a commoner, but what, pray tell, is the issue with "winemaker"?'

Well, I certainly disagree with the first part of your sentence, since I've learned so much from you over the years, Jenise.

My point was really much more narrow. When I first got into wine seriously, I was surprised at how many compound words there were -- "winemaker" not "wine maker", "mouthfeel" not "mouth feel", etc. Robin shows his deep sensitivity toward the English language with "WineLover" not "Wine Lover".

I'm so used to the practice now that I'm no longer surprised to see unusual compounds, and with the apparent death of the hyphen and perhaps the growth of compounds generally, my irritation is probably more historic than practical. For sure, I'm not making a serious complaint -- folks and dictionaries are sure to jam more and more words together -- all I have to do is glance at my BlackBerry to prove the point.

Regards, Bob
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Re: Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike most?

by Bruce K » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:34 am

"Sleeper of the vintage."

"Pain grillé."

"Hedonistic."

(Actually, that's a somewhat useful term, I just don't like what the writer in question means when he uses it.)
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Keith M

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Re: Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike most?

by Keith M » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:54 am

Bruce K wrote:"Sleeper of the vintage."


Hmm . . . that could be a good one . . . just need some more lyrics and a little music in the background, something like . . .

Sleeper of the vintage
Keeper of the zoo
Ready to relieve 'em
Of a sou or two

Watering the wine
Making up the weight
Pickin' up their knick-knacks
When they can't see straight


. . . with apologies to Herbert Kretzmer, who wikipedia references as the author of the original lyrics . . .
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Re: Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike most?

by Dale Williams » Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:03 am

Actually, I'd strongly advise most of you to never read anything I write (if you don't already), as I use several of your pet peeves.:)

A few thoughts:
In some cases, it seems the issue is the misuse (varietal and price point), both have valid uses.

Steve, I'd agree with Bob that fruit driven is a bit different from fruity. I personally find "drinking well" a useful shorthand- I've never seen it used as a synonym for "good", but rather as a signal that a wine is not closed down, harshly tannic, or otherwise not performing at its best- a temporal judgement, not quality.

Bob, so you dislike compound words in general? It seems to me it's quite useful to combine words if the combination denotes a fairly precise meaning. How is winemaker different from dressmaker, woodworker, or dishwasher? You could also write bath room, but I find bathroom quite convenient.
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Re: Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike most?

by Bob Ross » Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:35 am

"Bob, so you dislike compound words in general?"

Well, it's historic rather than current thinking, Dale -- I have very little character when it comes to new conventions.

I think compounding words is much easier nowadays with text editors -- in the Selectric typewriter days, one often had to hyphenate compound words in order to make them fit and many words like "shoe maker" which fits the "rules" for compounding stayed two words.

The only negative I now have is that with word processing programs, the longer words are often hyphenated in ugly ways -- for example, Word will hyphenate "winemaker" as "wine-maker" or as "winemak-er" if it occurs at the end of a sentence.

But it's all a dead issue -- no use fighting the flood of newly compound words. It always took a bit of effort to decide whether which of the three forms shoemaker should take: "shoe maker", "shoe-maker" or "shoemaker". "Shoemaker" is the modern way to go.

And so is "winemaker". :)
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Re: Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike most?

by Mark Lipton » Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:46 am

"Hedonistic" gets my vote, for an abundance of reasons, only one of which is pedantic in nature. "Sweet tannins" gets the runner-up award and "liquid Viagra" gets the award for silliest neologism.

Mark "pleasure-hater" Lipton
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Re: Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike most?

by Gary Barlettano » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:11 am

Bob, I find it hard to object to words in use. To be sure, usages which go against whatever arbitrary stylistic or grammatical standards I have set for myself give me the hiccoughs and cause an involuntarily wrinkling of my nose. And, no matter how empircally I view language, dirty words are still dirty words and I prefer my children and those women under 30 whom I date not to use them. Whenever I see a usage or a word I don't like, I try to "correct" by example, i.e. by using it in the way I do like and then hope that this sounds better to the listener and that the listener will adapt to my linguistic patterns. It is what "sounds the best" to the most people which will ultimately rule the day anyway. (This is similar to repeating a sentence correctly which has just been said incorrectly by a learner of a foreign language. Don't tell him he's wrong; just say it the right way several times and hope it sinks it, hope it sounds right to him or her.)

With that "brief" introduction I have to say that I can't think offhand of any "winespeak" words which really push my hot button. I know I get a little miffed by folks who try to sound smart, apart and elegant and use off-the-wall descriptors which are neither in the vocabulary nor within the experience of the normal mortal. That seems to defeat the purpose of communication. Incorrect explanations of words by folks who should know better also evoke a Spock-like raise of the Vulcan eyebrow in me, e.g. bad explanations of "Meritage" and "Super Tuscan" which I frequently hear from the pouring folks out here in Wineland.

But if a piece of jargon serves some useful communicative purpose, then why not?
And now what?
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Re: Winespeak jargon: which word or phrase do you dislike most?

by Bruce K » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:39 am

"pleasure-hater"


Damn straight. Give me something austere, restrained, sharp, biting, cutting, bone dry, and rocky any day. To hell with lush, opulent, soft and sweet. I want masochism in a bottle!

"liquid Viagra" gets the award for silliest neologism.


I'll second the nomination.
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