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Jancis Robinson on Napa; 20 and 100 pt scoring system discussion

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Re: Jancis Robinson has some Napa thoughts!!

by Max Hauser » Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:12 pm

Mike Pollard wrote:
Max Hauser wrote:It'd be interesting to see more written also on what I gather was the well-established Australian 100-point scoring custom.
If you click on Dan Murphy in my earlier post it will take you to a post on my blog about Murphy and the 100 point system he used to assess wines in Australia.

Hi Mike, I had read your link, thanks for posting. I'm just wondering about the larger history in Australia. I was reliably informed that this scoring format was well established in Australia pre-Parker, I gather now that its proponents clearly included Murphy, but would like to know more of the story.

The 20-point UC-Davis judging system had significant following in the US wine world pre-Parker; vestiges appear in later literature, and even today. But it never really "took" among general wine enthusiasts. Its oft-remarked failure to do so as of the 1980s underlay some surprise that Parker's 100-point ratings, in contrast, caught on. The Davis system of course had a specific discipline to it, while the other was simply a number concluded by one critic. As I mention from time to time for anybody who didn't see them, the other US wine newsletters pre-Parker favored coarser rankings, like four or five quality categories, supplemented of course by words. Many people then, and now, wonder about the objective justification for finer increments (implying repeatability, comparability of different wine types in a single number, understood meaning, etc.) but obviously that didn't prevent their popularity. When I assessed Parker's writing against the other wine newsletters in the 1980s, the 100-point score was one of his two or three conspicuous differences.

Mike Pollard wrote:current 100 point format is more popular and if I remember correctly (from a certain book) ... a number just forms in his mind.

I remember that book! :lol:
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Re: Jancis Robinson has some Napa thoughts!!

by Sue Courtney » Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:58 am

Victorwine wrote:Sue wrote;
“I really can't see an 85 translating to 12.5. This is verging on undrinkable in my book………”

Sue can you please give us your “break down” of the scores in your 20 point scale.

Score range Extraordinary
Score range Excellent
Score range Good (above average)
So on

Salute

20 extra-extraordinary
19.5 extraordinary (near perfect)
18.5 Excellent (this and above is gold)
18 Very very good, but lacks an x-factor be be gold.
17 Very good (this and above is silver)
15.5 to 16.5 Good (above average)

Scoring is pretty much along the lines of Geoff Kelly's, linked to in Mike Pollard's post above.

Cheers,
Sue
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Re: Jancis Robinson has some Napa thoughts!!

by Victorwine » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:12 pm

So basically you are actually using a 10-point scale. (14 - 15.4 average; 12 – 13.9 below average (slight faults); 10 -11.9 poor and objectionable). Being a member of the AWS (American Wine Society) we use a UC Davis modified 20 point scale:
18 – 20 Extraordinary
15 – 17 Excellent
12 – 14 Good
9 – 11 Commercially acceptable
6 – 8 Deficient
0 – 5 Poor and objectionable

Salute
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Re: Jancis Robinson has some Napa thoughts!!

by Sue Courtney » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:27 pm

Victorwine wrote:So basically you are actually using a 10-point scale. (14 - 15.4 average; 12 – 13.9 below average (slight faults); 10 -11.9 poor and objectionable). Being a member of the AWS (American Wine Society) we use a UC Davis modified 20 point scale:
18 – 20 Extraordinary
15 – 17 Excellent
12 – 14 Good
9 – 11 Commercially acceptable
6 – 8 Deficient
0 – 5 Poor and objectionable

Salute


The difference between the Australia / New Zealand 20 point scale (as used in show judging and taught at the AWRI Advanced Wine Assessment Course for aspiring wine judges) and the UC Davis 20 point scale, is that the 20 points are derived differently, if my readings are right.
NZ/Aust award 3 points for appearance (colour / clarity), 7 for aroma / bouquet and 10 for taste, lack of faults, varietal correctness and general impression.

UC Davis is 4 for colour / clarity, 4 for aroma / bouquet and 12 for the rest.

Regards,
Sue
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Re: Jancis Robinson has some Napa thoughts!!

by Thomas » Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:38 pm

Sue Courtney wrote:
Victorwine wrote:So basically you are actually using a 10-point scale. (14 - 15.4 average; 12 – 13.9 below average (slight faults); 10 -11.9 poor and objectionable). Being a member of the AWS (American Wine Society) we use a UC Davis modified 20 point scale:
18 – 20 Extraordinary
15 – 17 Excellent
12 – 14 Good
9 – 11 Commercially acceptable
6 – 8 Deficient
0 – 5 Poor and objectionable

Salute


The difference between the Australia / New Zealand 20 point scale (as used in show judging and taught at the AWRI Advanced Wine Assessment Course for aspiring wine judges) and the UC Davis 20 point scale, is that the 20 points are derived differently, if my readings are right.
NZ/Aust award 3 points for appearance (colour / clarity), 7 for aroma / bouquet and 10 for taste, lack of faults, varietal correctness and general impression.

UC Davis is 4 for colour / clarity, 4 for aroma / bouquet and 12 for the rest.

Regards,
Sue


I never understood the number ascribed to color in the UC Davis 20-point score. I believe it truly skews the system. But the system is more valid than the subjective 100-point system, mainly because the former is perpetrated on the wines as a standard that everyone is to meet. The latter scoring system is a vague idea of what a personal taster admires about a wine.

In either case, the more I use them, the less I like scores.

As for blind tasting, someone mentioned that they are only good to evaluate the taster. I disagree. That is only true for parlor games.

A truly blind tasting should be used for technical reasons only--to evaluate the wine in the glass, not solely to identify the name of the grape and region, but to evaluate the technical merits of the wine first, and then its representative characteristics. No critic's scoring system seems to come close to doing that, especially when the critic happens to like certain technical flaws in wine.

In order to effect a solid blind tasting that means anything, the taster should have some technical wine training.
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Re: Jancis Robinson has some Napa thoughts!!

by Brian K Miller » Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:11 pm

Nothing to contribute to this technical discussion :? :twisted:

but, I think I like the UC Davis Scoring system for my own paltry attempts at ranking.
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Re: Jancis Robinson has some Napa thoughts!!

by Victorwine » Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:15 pm

Thanks Sue.
Here’s the AWS’s criterion for scoring:
0-3 points Appearance and color
0-6 points Aroma/Bouquet
0-6 points Taste/Texture
0-3 points Aftertaste
0-2 points Overall Impression

Your scoring system is more geared for competitions and judging, while the AWS’s modified UC Davis scoring system is geared more for wine appreciation.

Salute
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Re: Jancis Robinson has some Napa thoughts!!

by Max Hauser » Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:21 pm

Thomas wrote:A truly blind tasting should be used for technical reasons only--to evaluate the wine in the glass, not solely to identify the name of the grape and region, but to evaluate the technical merits of the wine first, and then its representative characteristics.

I'd add (from regularly blind-tasting many wines, often to evaluate new releases or make buying decisions) we also learn how much we like the wine, comparing it directly to competitive wines. (That's how I found Burgundy values in recent "Tastiest within two years" thread; the method is powerfully honest; of eight red Burgs retailing US $22 to $90 a few days ago, a favorite of many tasters was the cheapest, $22, which we didn't know while tasting it.)

Thomas wrote:As for blind tasting, someone mentioned that they are only good to evaluate the taster. I disagree...

Yes, I don't know where sentiments like that arise, unless from a very specific and different experience of blind tasting.

The fact is, "blinding" is the fundamental, bedrock tool to remove suggestive psychological factors -- how much the wine cost, how fashionable the maker, etc. These factors are mostly unconscious but powerful. Blinding is essential to all kinds of serious evaluations, from sound-reproduction quality tests to pharmaceutical trials. It is so basic to methods and literature of wine evaluation that if I see it glibly rejected on other online fora, that tells me (paraphrasing the last quotation) mostly about the writer. Obviously we don't enjoy our wines at meals blind, but just as obviously it's the only way to honestly extract the maximum information in a tasting. And yes it takes some background but not a great deal, and experience teaches.
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Re: Jancis Robinson has some Napa thoughts!!

by Graeme Gee » Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:40 pm

Thomas wrote:A truly blind tasting should be used for technical reasons only--to evaluate the wine in the glass, not solely to identify the name of the grape and region, but to evaluate the technical merits of the wine first, and then its representative characteristics.

Thomas, I do agree with this. Perhaps I was assuming a different starting point altogether; presuming that the wine was fault-free and so on. I guess my attitude is more along the lines of trying to bring objective criteria and conclusions to the objective nature of the tasting. Whether that means conclusions as to the technical aspects of the wine, or its 'options game' attributes makes no difference.

Max Hauser wrote:I'd add (from regularly blind-tasting many wines, often to evaluate new releases or make buying decisions) we also learn how much we like the wine, comparing it directly to competitive wines. (That's how I found Burgundy values in recent "Tastiest within two years" thread; the method is powerfully honest; of eight red Burgs retailing US $22 to $90 a few days ago, a favorite of many tasters was the cheapest, $22, which we didn't know while tasting it.)

Well, I suggest you go back and read Jancis' comments in the article linked at the head of this thread. I guess my objection to blind tasting in the manner you describe is that it's function appears merely to serve a rather glib 'which I like best' purpose.

The fact is, "blinding" is the fundamental, bedrock tool to remove suggestive psychological factors -- how much the wine cost, how fashionable the maker, etc. These factors are mostly unconscious but powerful. Blinding is essential to all kinds of serious evaluations, from sound-reproduction quality tests to pharmaceutical trials.

But the 'scientific method', for want of a better term, is attempting to remove bias in order to form an objective opinion about the attribute of an object. You're not trying to form an objective opinion (ie something measureable) about anything. You just want to find out which wine you like best.

It is so basic to methods and literature of wine evaluation that if I see it glibly rejected on other online fora, that tells me (paraphrasing the last quotation) mostly about the writer. Obviously we don't enjoy our wines at meals blind, but just as obviously it's the only way to honestly extract the maximum information in a tasting. And yes it takes some background but not a great deal, and experience teaches.

My bolding, above. It makes no sense to me. So you enjoy wines the most when you don't know what you're drinking? What is the 'maximum information' that you get from blind tasting, other than which wines you liked best?
I don't have a problem with blind assessment of TCA, oxidation, brett, bacterial faults, haze, mousiness, all that kind of thing. My initial post wasn't perhaps comprehensive enough.
It doesn't take any background whatsoever to taste a blind line up of Passtoutgrains, Bourgogne, Villages, Premiere, Grand, and pick the one whose taste you like best. Anyone can do that. It could be any of the five wines. :?:
cheers,
Graeme
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Re: Jancis Robinson has some Napa thoughts!!

by Thomas » Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:13 pm

Graeme,

In my view--no, in truth--the only objective measure of wine is scientific. In other words, that which can be measured is objective; that which cannot is not.

That's why I say that those who evaluate wines blind need to be trained in the technical pluses and minuses of wine's attributes, and those need to be established by way of agreed upon, technically objective measures. That means, establishing what is acceptable in v.a., brett, oxidation, etc. Anything other than that is subjective and relatively meaningless no matter which system is used to score or evaluate wine, because you cannot transfer subjective measures from person to person.

This is why I refrain from even debating a wine's qualities with others. I don't care what others like or dislike about a wine; only what I like or dislike about it. But I do care whether or not the thing is sound and drinkable. I have encountered numerous high-scoring wines that are the equivalent of garbage--technically.
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Re: Jancis Robinson has some Napa thoughts!!

by Graeme Gee » Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:38 am

Thomas wrote:Graeme,

In my view--no, in truth--the only objective measure of wine is scientific. In other words, that which can be measured is objective; that which cannot is not.

That's why I say that those who evaluate wines blind need to be trained in the technical pluses and minuses of wine's attributes, and those need to be established by way of agreed upon, technically objective measures. That means, establishing what is acceptable in v.a., brett, oxidation, etc. Anything other than that is subjective and relatively meaningless no matter which system is used to score or evaluate wine, because you cannot transfer subjective measures from person to person.

Yes. I do agree. I hope nothing I wrote earlier contradicts this...? As far as judging a wine this is a fine use for blind tasting. The other issue I was discussing was using a (presumably sound) wine to judge oneself.

This is why I refrain from even debating a wine's qualities with others. I don't care what others like or dislike about a wine; only what I like or dislike about it. But I do care whether or not the thing is sound and drinkable. I have encountered numerous high-scoring wines that are the equivalent of garbage--technically.

You're presumably not one of those people who ever finds a wine technically faulty but irresistable anyway? I'm partly thinking here of cases like some of the earlier vintages of Penfolds Grange, which were castigated in wine shows by some judges who found the VA excessive and hence described the wine as faulty, others who deined it was so, and the awkward middle group, who conceded the volatility, but claimed it made a better wine anyway.
All grist to the mill...!
cheers,
Graeme
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Re: Jancis Robinson has some Napa thoughts!!

by Thomas » Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:59 am

Graeme Gee wrote:You're presumably not one of those people who ever finds a wine technically faulty but irresistable anyway? I'm partly thinking here of cases like some of the earlier vintages of Penfolds Grange, which were castigated in wine shows by some judges who found the VA excessive and hence described the wine as faulty, others who deined it was so, and the awkward middle group, who conceded the volatility, but claimed it made a better wine anyway.
All grist to the mill...!
cheers,
Graeme


Probably so. This is the cross I bear for having been a winemaker.

A bunch of us winemakers used to gather once a month for dinner and wine. We each brought a bottle of wine to pass around--blind. After we all got our shot at it, we unveiled the wine.

Our analysis was always technical, and the unveiling could be humbling as well as exhilarating.

When the food arrived, we went back to the wines. Almost invariably, I could change my view of the wine as it related to the food.

As I see it, there are three contexts: evaluating a wine technically; evaluating a wine subjectively; evaluating a wine and food experience, which is like a mid-way between technically and subjectively.

I've come to appreciate the third way over the others, and there are no numbers to assign either!
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Re: Jancis Robinson has some Napa thoughts!!

by Bill Spohn » Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:48 am

Points, points...argh!

Am I the only one for whom having to rate an experience by assigning a number to it is actually distasteful?

When you get out of your car after an early morning drive in the crisp air on a deserted road, do you feel the experience is incomplete until you assign an arbitrary number to it?

Do you keep a score card like they have in a pool hall at the head of your bed so you can rate your sexual activity ("Wow, that could have been a 10 if there hadn't been someone else there distracting me...")

Points can be usefull to keep track of many wines in one night, although my bet is that if you went back to wines from the first half after doing the second half, many times you would rate them differently than you did right 'out of the box' before you had calibrated your palate.

Points the way most people treat them are not our servants, they are a crutch. I have been taken to task publically by one group that is so anal that they don't disclose the wines until they have seen a show of hands with assigned points, and responded that I don't take part because I don't use points, and because I couldn't give a rodents heinie what anyone else in the room thought of a wine. Their good opinion wouldn't make me like the wine any better, nor their condemnation of it, any worse. This was of course apostasy to that group, but it pointed out the herd mentality where insecure people sought to ratify their own opinions by sharing a statistical majority of opinion about the wines.

I can see that a rating scale is useful to writers attempting to educate, but in the real world, why would anyone care about anyone else's palate than their own? The whole thing seems so artificial and silly.

BTW, if I DID use points, I had a wine I'd rate 100 points this week. But I wouldn't expect anyone else to see that wine in precisely the same way I did, nor would I seek to impose my views on them, thought I would politely listen to their description of the wine - once in awhile you hear something you can relate to but didn't pop high enough in your own consciousness to get noted by you.

Hint - the wine was Italian. Notes (but not ratings) by the weekend.
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Re: Jancis Robinson has some Napa thoughts!!

by Mike Pollard » Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:20 pm

Bill Spohn wrote:Points, points...argh!

Am I the only one for whom having to rate an experience by assigning a number to it is actually distasteful?

When you get out of your car after an early morning drive in the crisp air on a deserted road, do you feel the experience is incomplete until you assign an arbitrary number to it?


Bill,

Are you saying that each early moring drive you take is exactly the same, the car performs exactly the same, you perform exactly the same? You can't assess that you may need to make some changes, either to the car or your driving to iimprove the experience? You really can't decide that one drive was better than another? If you can then you are ranking/rating/judgeing the experience, and points are just another step down that path.

To be quite honest, if I was driving 5 or 6 different cars over the same road, especially with a view to purchasing one, I would rate/rank/judge them. Otherwise how am I to make my decision?

I am a firm believer that the necessary tools have been developed to judge wine objectively. Yes there may be differences in thresholds of detection of the components in wine, and even very significant differences in the description of components. But those differences can be described in very objective terms, even down to the level of individual genes. And let's face it, I have not spent 30 years of absorbing all the information I can about wine only to have it reduced to comparison of a summer breeze, or a woman's chest.

I find that talking about wine in a subjective manner, which means that the discussion only has relevance to individual experience, is a complete waste of time because relating the experience to others can often be meaningless to them.

Mike
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Re: Jancis Robinson has some Napa thoughts!!

by Bill Spohn » Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:50 pm

Mike Pollard wrote:I find that talking about wine in a subjective manner, which means that the discussion only has relevance to individual experience, is a complete waste of time because relating the experience to others can often be meaningless to them.

Mike


And you feel that if you tell me a numerical score you gave a particular bottle, that makes it all worthwhile? What possible meaning could the fact that you scored a wine, say, 90 points, have to me when I wasn't there, didn't share the bottle with you and have no idea of your preferences and how you score?
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Re: Jancis Robinson has some Napa thoughts!!

by Max Hauser » Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:17 pm

Graeme Gee wrote:
Max Hauser wrote:I'd add (from regularly blind-tasting many wines, often to evaluate new releases or make buying decisions) we also learn how much we like the wine....
... I guess my objection to blind tasting in the manner you describe is that it's function appears merely to serve a rather glib 'which I like best' purpose.
"blinding" is the fundamental, bedrock tool to remove suggestive psychological factors...
You're not trying to form an objective opinion (ie something measureable) about anything. You just want to find out which wine you like best.

I get a sense here, very familiar from online exchanges, of one person using imperfect words with personal associations, and another person coming along and reading his own, different, associations into the words, then responding to those. (My past associations included context from the thread, but the context was Thomas's words, not Graeme's.)

Graeme, rather than telling me what you imagine I "want," step back a little here. (The above is a very off-target characterization of what we do in blind tastings; we extract all possible objective information, and write it down; a further benefit is that we also get an esthetic sense of the wine, undistracted by label and price information.) I'm sure Graeme that you would have a very different impression, were you to taste with one of the groups I'm in.

I'd sum it up like this for anyone unaccustomed to serious blind tasting. Do whatever you are used to doing when tasting wine -- assess the wine any way you like. But do it without knowing which wine it is. That's the whole point.


Bill Spohn is of course completely right about point scores becoming an end in themselves -- wagging the dog. They may have some use in learning about wine; they were used very little by the US public or wine geeks for most of modern history, only about 20 years ago were they becoming popular and then chiefly with newbies or customers who didn't know wine and wanted easy buying guidance. Few wine geeks that I know pay them any attention except to note their harmful side effects.
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Re: Jancis Robinson has some Napa thoughts!!

by Thomas » Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:35 pm

Max Hauser wrote:They may have some use in learning about wine; they were used very little by the US public or wine geeks for most of modern history, only about 20 years ago were they becoming popular and then chiefly with newbies or customers who didn't know wine and wanted easy buying guidance. Few wine geeks that I know pay them any attention except to note their harmful side effects.


Max,

The way I see it, regarding scores, the system was designed in an era when only a scant few expressed much interest in wine, while another scant few saw the growth potential if they could appeal to the people who had just entered the alcohol-consumption age--the baby boomers--who were starting to earn a living. The former devised a way to capture the insecure latter.

Now, of course, the following has become near ravenous about the followed, forgetting in the process that they--the followers--actually were given at birth their own sense of smell and taste.

I could be all wrong about it--but I'm sticking to the scenario. It makes me feel like I am in the right camp ;)
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Re: Jancis Robinson has some Napa thoughts!!

by Victorwine » Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:02 pm

The one thing good about the modified UC Davis 20 point scale is you can change the criteria, (the components evaluated) and “weight” given to each so that the evaluation is more geared towards judging and competitions, appreciation, or winemaking.

Salute
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Re: Jancis Robinson has some Napa thoughts!!

by Harry Cantrell » Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:02 pm

Who first used the 100 point scale reminds me of who first discovered America. The Native Americans were thought to have travelled from Russia area over the frozen Bering Strait. Then the Vikings have some good evidence that they were here centuries before Christopher Columbus. But it was Columbus that took the info to the people that could do something with the info. So, he was the first to Popularize it. Parker is Columbus. He may not have discovered the scale, but he brought it to the attention of people who could use it. The Ozzie who wrote about it obviously died on the vine as the 20 point scale is almost universal in OZ, according to what I am reading.
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Re: Jancis Robinson has some Napa thoughts!!

by Max Hauser » Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:39 pm

[Incidentally Thomas, I may have visited your winery in the 1980s, if it was near the Finger Lakes and open for drop-in visitors, in which event there's a fair chance I still have notes. My chief memory of surveying the Finger Lakes region was Suzy Knapp imitating the CU "Hotellies" by holding up a glass to the sun and proclaiming, "Legs!" I may also have original clippings of your articles, having been a voracious reader of wine journalism at that time.]

Thomas wrote:Max, / regarding scores, the system was designed in an era when only a scant few expressed much interest in wine...

Here's a reflection on something this reminded me of -- this isn't about Thomas's words, but a general observation. A human habit on joining something with past history (whether an employer, a community, or wine enthusiasm) is that our minds fill in some comfortable tentative model, or intuition, about the activity's history before we joined it. These tentative models -- subject to update as needed -- are unconscious or barely conscious. What's interesting is how often they unknowingly clash with reality in the absence of deliberate research. An example of this was a comment by a young wine merchant in a tasting group some 10 years ago.

I'd mentioned something about the retail wine market around 1982 and this merchant immediately and confidently assured me that very few people in the US had been interested in fine wines in 1982. This shocked me because (1) US metropolitan wine-geek scenes I knew in those days may have been less populous than later but they were thronged enough -- shops and restaurants offering well-attended wine-tasting events for the public, newspapers and magazines carrying wine articles. And (2) knowing hard data from the Wine Institute etc. I was aware of objective measures of US wine habits and how they'd evolved in the 15 years since 1982: Increasing clearly, but not spectacularly. (Aside: Quantitative intuition has been an important part of my career.) Then it struck me: This merchant (then turning 30) had been 14 or 15 years old in 1982. "Very few people interested in fine wines" may have partly or unconsciously reflected his own fine-wine experience of 1982. I've seen the same thing often since, not just about wine. (The "scant few" above triggered this memory but please note I don't connect it so far to this perception phenomenon, because I don't presume to divine Thomas's allusions above. For all I know, I was 14 or 15 in the days Thomas had in mind!)
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Re: Jancis Robinson has some Napa thoughts!!

by Thomas » Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:38 am

Max Hauser wrote:[Incidentally Thomas, I may have visited your winery in the 1980s, if it was near the Finger Lakes and open for drop-in visitors, in which event there's a fair chance I still have notes. My chief memory of surveying the Finger Lakes region was Suzy Knapp imitating the CU "Hotellies" by holding up a glass to the sun and proclaiming, "Legs!" I may also have original clippings of your articles, having been a voracious reader of wine journalism at that time.]

Thomas wrote:Max, / regarding scores, the system was designed in an era when only a scant few expressed much interest in wine...

Here's a reflection on something this reminded me of -- this isn't about Thomas's words, but a general observation. A human habit on joining something with past history (whether an employer, a community, or wine enthusiasm) is that our minds fill in some comfortable tentative model, or intuition, about the activity's history before we joined it. These tentative models -- subject to update as needed -- are unconscious or barely conscious. What's interesting is how often they unknowingly clash with reality in the absence of deliberate research. An example of this was a comment by a young wine merchant in a tasting group some 10 years ago.

I'd mentioned something about the retail wine market around 1982 and this merchant immediately and confidently assured me that very few people in the US had been interested in fine wines in 1982. This shocked me because (1) US metropolitan wine-geek scenes I knew in those days may have been less populous than later but they were thronged enough -- shops and restaurants offering well-attended wine-tasting events for the public, newspapers and magazines carrying wine articles. And (2) knowing hard data from the Wine Institute etc. I was aware of objective measures of US wine habits and how they'd evolved in the 15 years since 1982: Increasing clearly, but not spectacularly. (Aside: Quantitative intuition has been an important part of my career.) Then it struck me: This merchant (then turning 30) had been 14 or 15 years old in 1982. "Very few people interested in fine wines" may have partly or unconsciously reflected his own fine-wine experience of 1982. I've seen the same thing often since, not just about wine. (The "scant few" above triggered this memory but please note I don't connect it so far to this perception phenomenon, because I don't presume to divine Thomas's allusions above. For all I know, I was 14 or 15 in the days Thomas had in mind!)


Max.

Let's put your "quantitative intuition" to rest, or try to do so.

Admittedly, "scant few" is too vague to make sense, but so is the Internet and I've learned that facts, should they ever be recorded over this medium, usually get shot down by a mass of opinions!

Of course, you took my "scant few" and removed it from my later reference to the baby boomers, which is really the key to what I was saying; our group--yes, I am one of them--can hardly account for scant few.

Anyway, my "scant few" comes from a statistic, that has held almost steady in the U.S. until very, very recently: when RP began his Wine Advocate (circa 1980 or so) fewer than 95% of the wines consumed in this country were of the so-called premium level. It's only been within the past fifteen years that the statistic shifted to fewer than 90%. It may be a little better than that these days, but I doubt it.

Baby boomers were the force behind the growth (helped a little by the 1976 Paris tasting). Boomers had the potential for earning money, plus a lack of savvy in the wine and food sphere--a following waiting to be led if I ever saw one, and a perfect foil for the points scoring system of others who nicely and cleanly gave the "un-savvy" something on which to hang their hopes and taste buds. And it probably is no accident that most of the audience for the system was male, the same audience that follows sports competitions rabidly and by a set of competitive numbers, but I digress into psychology, which is not my domain.

Your retailer may have been young in 1982, but I wasn't so young. I was in that very year studying winemaking and planning my winery. I became not only a winery owner, but after that venture was done in by a variety of forces, not the least being lack of money, I became a distributor sales rep, and then a wine retail shop owner. I tell you this just so you know that I don't make things up--I was there.

Let me say without trepidation of being proven wrong that before 1982 it was a rare thing indeed to see wine shelves as they look today, even in New York City. The Morrells and Sherry Lehmans of the great Metropolis were in the decided retail minority. In 1982, the word, Chardonnay, just got itself going throughout the general public, and, sadly, most of what ultimately hit the streets as Chardonnay was, to my possibly, but doubtfully pedestrian tastes, insipid.

I could go on, but you likely see what I mean, and by now I should have fed enough grist for the opinion market to start firing at me ;)

PS: If you have some clippings of my stuff, burn 'em...they were written by a greenhorn. If you got to taste either my Rieslings or Gewurztraminers, whether or not I sound immodest, they were fantastic--opened the last of them from my library not too long ago. Five straight years of Riesling and two Gew. All except one wine was gracefully aged and marvelously expressive of what I hoped to achieve with them.
There's nothing so magnetic as an aged Riesling.
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Re: Jancis Robinson has some Napa thoughts!!

by Max Hauser » Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:00 pm

Thomas wrote:... a statistic, that has held almost steady in the U.S. until very, very recently: when RP began his Wine Advocate (circa 1980 or so) fewer than 95% of the wines consumed in this country were of the so-called premium level. It's only been within the past fifteen years that the statistic shifted to fewer than 90%.

1978 (IIRC), by the way, for origin date of the Baltimore-Washington Wine Advocate as it was initially called. (In the places I lived, it was less widely known than the other existing US wine newsletters until some years later.) But I'm not sure I follow those 95% and 90% comments, could you elaborate?

Thomas wrote:... before 1982 it was a rare thing indeed to see wine shelves as they look today, even in New York City. ... In 1982, the word, Chardonnay, just got itself going throughout the general public, and, sadly, most of what ultimately hit the streets as Chardonnay was, to my possibly, but doubtfully pedestrian tastes, insipid.

I'll go along enthusiastically with the "rare thing" statement for US wine products. For European wines (excluding some regions that came to general prominence in later times) the comparison is very different, at least in the two metro regions where I bought most of my wines (Boston and San Francisco). European selections resembled today's (prices didn't) and I believe anyone examining a list of the wines I'd accumulated by 1980 or so would agree that French and German products, at least, were profusely available. As an anecdote, when the 1978 Bordeaux were due, with much advance hype in the press and wine newsletters (then as now), Martignetti, one of five or six major Boston-area wine merchants I then bought from, advertised a 78 Bordeaux bottle tasting for the public and booked a ballroom at the Cambridge Hyatt-Regency for 1 April 1981 which filled up with maybe 100-120 people at tables (I'm looking now at the five-page brochure handed out there, used for tasting notes). Kermit Lynch's flyer from California simultaneously announced pre-arrival offer of several inexpensive minor 1978 Bordeaux to buck the trend of "inflated" Bordeaux prices. I bought from both offerings. In those days I bought more Burgundies than Bordeaux though and just as with the pre-Parker wine newsletters (which some later US journalists assume didn't exist), I have not just the memories but the documents -- including shelf inventory notes on California wines available in Boston, 1979, which is how I can say specifically how limited those were. Burgundies and Bdx paradoxically (excluding smaller shippers and producers that the market later sought out) were more available then, because wines still remained on the retail market for several years past vintage; 1970 Bordeaux were still richly available at Boston retailers by 1980, I bought 1970 Lynch-Bages for instance at $20 there in 1980. Back in California where I came from, in places such as Berkeley there were more retail wine shops than now, because a group of venerable ones closed down over the 1980s.

Let's not get into Chardonnay -- the early 1980s saw a then-famous explosion in popularity, documented in the wine publications, with some producers suddenly getting $15-$25 for anything labeled "Chardonnay," to the dismay of the regular California newsletter critics like Olken and Singer. Talk around 1981 and 1982 quipped that John Anderson's independent Presidential campaign, with its appeal to "Brie and Chablis liberals" of the professional classes, helped jump-start the fashion for pricey, overoaked "buttery" California Chardonnays which has now at least partly subsided.
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Re: Jancis Robinson has some Napa thoughts!!

by Thomas » Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:33 pm

What can I say, Max?

You are talking mainly from your experience, which is not a reflection of the whole wine market. In fact, I submit that the high prices of, say, Bordeaux are a reflection of the increased demand over the past few years, which is a reflection of the baby boomer inclusion in the premium wine market that did not exist when those wines used to cost less than a mortgage (and, I should add, they were not merely status symbols either, which I unfortunately believe is the case with a lot of wine buying).

The 95 and 90% figures are from industry stats that had been floated for a number of years. It's based on sales figures for wines at certain price levels, the premium price cutoff keeps inching upwards.
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Re: Jancis Robinson has some Napa thoughts!!

by Max Hauser » Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:04 pm

Sorry if I was unclear! This --
As an anecdote, when the 1978 Bordeaux were due, ...

-- and similar statements expressed personal experience. These --
For European wines (excluding some regions that came to general prominence in later times)... in the two metro regions where I bought most of my wines (Boston and San Francisco) ... selections resembled today's (prices didn't) ... shelf inventory notes [from retailers] ... Kermit Lynch's flyer from California simultaneously announced pre-arrival offer of several inexpensive minor 1978 Bordeaux ... Burgundies and Bdx were more available then, because wines still remained on the retail market for several years past vintage; 1970 Bordeaux were still richly available at Boston retailers by 1980 ... in places such as Berkeley there were more retail wine shops than now, because a group of venerable ones closed down over the 1980s. ... early 1980s saw a then-famous explosion in [Chardonnay] popularity, documented in the wine publications, some producers suddenly getting $15-$25 for anything labeled "Chardonnay," to the dismay of the regular California newsletter critics like Olken and Singer. ... helped jump-start the fashion for pricey, overoaked "buttery" California Chardonnays which has now at least partly subsided.

-- relate objective information on the larger wine market, in places and wines I identified. Also if it was not clear, I refer mainly here to wine sales at wine shops (not supermarkets or other outlets). I'd be happy to compare, for instance, active Berkeley wine retailers in 1982 and 2007 and see if anyone concludes differently from the data.

Earlier quibble with a wine merchant's "1982" remark (setting aside he was then an adolescent) is it dismissed existence of a US wine-geek community in 1982, to the surprise of those of us who participated in that community and didn't perceive it then as tiny. (Large enough to sustain half a dozen US wine newsletters -- including Parker's -- and specialty wine shops in some towns.) Not to argue this community didn't grow. I'm part of US's "baby boom" (born middle 1950s); great demographic bulge beginning middle 1940s came of wine-buying age starting middle 1960s, but many who turned to wine as a hobby evidently did so later in life. I certainly agree wine is now more of a -- how to summarize it? -- yuppie toy than in the 1970s or even 1980s.
Thomas wrote:The 95 and 90% figures are ... based on sales figures for wines at certain price levels, the premium price cutoff keeps inching upwards.

What I sought there was: can you explain further the "90% and "95%" and their interpretation?
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