How old is too old for chardonnay and Sauvignon Blanc

I have a few bottles from the Gainey winery in California of chardonnay and Sauvignon Blanc from 1998 and 1999. When do these wines start going bad? I know that my reds mature nicely over time, but I do not want to srve these if they are past their prime.
Help anyone?

I have a few bottles from the Gainey winery in California of chardonnay and Sauvignon Blanc from 1998 and 1999. When do these wines start going bad? I know that my reds mature nicely over time, but I do not want to srve these if they are past their prime.
Help anyone?

John,
I can't speak about the Gaineys -- which I haven't had -- but it is the rare CA Chardonnay that improves beyond age 5 (not so for white Burgundy, though) and even rarer for a Sauvignon Blanc from anywhere, except for those few with some residual sugar in them. My advice would be to open both before too much longer... and have a backup bottle in reserve in case the wine that greets you isn't to your liking.

Mark Lipton

Mark,
Thanks for the advice. My wife and I have really started drinking more red wines and sometimes we forget about the Whites we have in the racks.
Thanks,
John

As Mark said, California chardonnays don't often live as long as French white Burgundies. This is mainly due to the lower acidity of the California product.

That being said, I've had CA chardonnay from Chateau Montelena and Matanzas Creek that was delightful in the 6-10 year old range.

But I've yet to see a CA chardonnay be vibrant and alive at 14 years, as was true of the 1993 Le Montrachet from Gouzotte d'Or that I had recently. But that's rather exceptional even for French white Burgundy.

-Paul W.

Paul,
Thanks for the input. I will be opening the whites next weekend and I will see how they fare.
I'll update this site again at that time.
John

But I've yet to see a CA chardonnay be vibrant and alive at 14 years, as was true of the 1993 Le Montrachet from Gouzotte d'Or that I had recently. But that's rather exceptional even for French white Burgundy.

-Paul W.

Only 14 years? They're still developing at that age. OK that last bit is an exaggeration - but you're probably thinking Davis clones. Those vineyards planted "pre-Davis" have a lot longer aging potential.
For example, the Mount Eden Chardonnays (Santa Cruz) are extremely long-lived. Some friends and I irreguarly taste the 83 and 87 Chards which we bought by the case (down to 2 bottles of 83 and 3 of 87). There has been an occasional 'dead' bottle, but mostly they are vibrant and wonderful (although probably fully evolved). And the mid-80's Chardonnays from Central Coast (Eberle in particular) are also excellent (again now plateaued but still drinking very well). Again, some died early (not the Eberle but other now defunct producers) - my theory is too LITTLE sulphur so they oxidised very young.
But maybe you were thinking Napa/Sonoma????

Admittedly I do like the complexity that age adds, but I've had Cortons and Meursaults from the 50's that none of the tasters thought were even 10 years old.

And tomorrow I'm opening a 10-year-old ONTARIO Chardonnay (the tasters won't know the age or origin). I'll report back on the reaction. based on my last taste it still has years ahead of it.

Turning to Sauvignon Blanc - not my favourite grape so I don't have any older wines in my cellar.
HOWEVER, recently attended a blind tasting of Cloudy Bay SB (oldest was 1993, youngest 2005 - not all vintages). The group consensus (around 60 attendees) had the 2002 top and the 1999 second. Older than that the fruit subsided, so less complexity. But certainly not dead - just boring.
The importing agent attended the tasting and was astounded. All their printed material suggests 'drink youngest available'. Our conclusion 4-8 years is best window.

Alan - keep us posted on the 10-year old Ontario. Regarding white Burgundy, how do un-oaked versions, such as Chablis, age vs those that go through malo-lactic fermentation and are aged in barrels? On the one hand, the higher acidity of the former should contribute to longevity, while the added tannins would to longevity in the latter. Any thoughts?

Mark Lipton wrote:

but it is the rare CA Chardonnay that improves beyond age 5 (not so for white Burgundy, though) and even rarer for a Sauvignon Blanc from anywhere, except for those few with some residual sugar in them

So what about dry white Bdx which is a blend of SB and Semillon? Does the same apply? I was under the impression that some of the beter ones could last a decade or more. Is it largely dependent upon the blend and winemaking approach such that there are many exceptions?

two things:
1. it depends and
2. it depends
whether a wine 'improves' or not is for practical purposes a matter of whether you like it better after it has aged - some do - for whites i generally do not.
whether bordeaux or chablis or whatever improve is on the other hand also dependent on the vintage and winemaking - firstly as to how much sulphur the wine had at bottling; but also things like the amount of acid which does help keep the wine 'alive'. 2006 sancerre, white bordeaux and chablis will do better than 2003 regardless of your personal preferences.
i have greatly enjoyed older dry white bordeaux - but certainly not all of them. same with oak aged white burgundy. but for chablis and sancerre and macon - three vintages back max. but everyone needs to determine their own tolerance for the increasing levels of oxidation that inevitably occur as wines age.

David,
Thanks for the input. I will open a few of the older bottles and I will have a few backups just in case. The party we are having is for about 50 tennis enthusiasts and we generally go through more red wine (zin, merlot, cab etc) then white. Probably at a 3 to 1 ratio.
John

Invoking Sturgeon's Law, and thus heading up to the (admittedly less than 10% top tier, I'd say that most CA chardonnays don't age becaue they are not intended to age: i.e., they are specifically made for short term drinkability rather than with long aging in mind.

There are, of course, exceptions. There are some chardonnay producers that do make their wines for ageability. And I've had some (again, admittedly very few, but then again that's the nature of the beast) that have aged for ten+- years and done very, very well.

The other aspect you always have to take into consideration is HOW the chardonnay ages. Or, to put it another way, do you want to taste some of those aged chardonnays, because an aged chardonnay can bear very little resemblance to a young one.

I know some people who make a point of scavenging close out bins and searching for old bottles on the shelf, in hopes of finding what most folks would consider old, tired, over-the-hill, hazelnutty/oxidized chardonnays.

It all comes down to which grape/where it came from/winemaker's style and intent. And to a lesser degree, how it was stored and what kind of bottle it was in.

As to the Gainey, can't help you out there...but I'd agree even without being familiar with the producer that your odds are much better to consume sooner rather than later.

SB? I don't consider SB to be a wine for aging more than a short term. Don't think, in general, age improves the nature of the variety there. Exceptions occur, of course, and I am talking about the dry versions and not the sweet.

(On the other hand I had a bottle of SB from Gaillac that was ten years old and brilliant. Exception to the rule.)

had a bottle of SB from Gaillac that was ten years old and brilliant. Exception to the rule.)

An exception to many rules. As I believe there is not much SB grown in Gaillac. Sounds great.

had a bottle of SB from Gaillac that was ten years old and brilliant. Exception to the rule.)

An exception to many rules. As I believe there is not much SB grown in Gaillac. Sounds great.

Yup, this was an exception and an oddity at the same time, as I was being 'tested' by a Parisian restaurateur/wine buyer who gleefully served it up and made us try to figure out what it was and how old it was. Neither of us figured it was ten years old; it seemed entirely youthful and lively. Said restaurateur actully giggled in delight when he stumped us on the age. Then promptly disappointed us when he told us there was only a barrel or two made, and he had it all. There are geeks, and there are uber-geeks.

Then promptly disappointed us when he told us there was only a barrel or two made, and he had it all. There are geeks, and there are uber-geeks.

Sounds great, although I'm not surprised. Many of the dry Gaillac whites that I like from ondenc and mauzac vert are crisp and refreshing like sauvignon blanc. So I have no idea about soil differences with Sancerre, Lake County, etc, or the different growing needs of those grapes, but in my mind's palate I can taste a Gaillac SB working..

As Mark said, California chardonnays don't often live as long as French white Burgundies. This is mainly due to the lower acidity of the California product.

That being said, I've had CA chardonnay from Chateau Montelena and Matanzas Creek that was delightful in the 6-10 year old range.

But I've yet to see a CA chardonnay be vibrant and alive at 14 years, as was true of the 1993 Le Montrachet from Gouzotte d'Or that I had recently. But that's rather exceptional even for French white Burgundy.

-Paul W.

The best still Chardonnay I have ever had was a 1985 Montelena a few years back. It was still very much alive and kicking. My second best still Chardonnay was an old bottle from Kalin Cellars. I'm an old world guy, but these blew away all the $200 Grand Cru white burgs that I've tasted.

I'll try to remember a bottle of 1990 Kalin Chardonnay next time we have an offline.

Also Mount Eden makes some age-worthy Chards.

Best,
Joe

Le Montrachet (being approximately the most prestigious white wine vineyard on this planet) is of course not exactly a typical Chardonnay even for Burgundy. I'm surprised though at how categorical are some of the responses here about California (just as I was recently about 1997 red Burgundies in view of several recent posted positive examples). Mark L, for instance, I assume you're reporting particular experience. Alan Gardner had other data:

Only 14 years? ... Those vineyards planted "pre-Davis" have a lot longer aging potential. For example, the Mount Eden Chardonnays (Santa Cruz) are extremely long-lived. ... And the mid-80's Chardonnays from Central Coast (Eberle in particular) are also excellent (again now plateaued but still drinking very well).

I also had such experiences. In the flowering US Chardonnay market in early 1980s, I got a few seemingly well-made examples and (not by plan) found one on hand, age 10 -- an 80 or 81 Leeward I think; expected little, but was stunned, it had developed and matured, into beautiful complexity and depth. A few years ago, Ridge Vineyards in California, neighboring Alan's Mount Eden but known chiefly for concentrated red varietals, showed one (1) white, 1998 Santa Cruz Mountains Chardonnay. In proper Ridge tradition (so concentrated it would almost stand up a spoon, and leave wood splinters) it also had enough minerals, acid, and wood that it obviously needed time. I bought some and one of these years (the wine is now nine years old) I aim to open it and see.

Mark,
Thanks for the advice. My wife and I have really started drinking more red wines and sometimes we forget about the Whites we have in the racks.
Thanks,
John

"In the racks"? John, if your racks are in a cellar that spends the year at roughly 55 degrees F, then the various comments in this thread would apply. But if your wines are kept at typical American room temperature then they would age and ultimately go downhill much sooner.

Clint,
Yes I said racks. They are also in the basement but in a climate and humidity controlled environment. I keep the area set at 55 degrees and 35 percent humidity.
John

I'm surprised though at how categorical are some of the responses here about California (just as I was recently about 1997 red Burgundies in view of several recent posted positive examples). Mark L, for instance, I assume you're reporting particular experience.

Max,
Yes, my statement was categorical, but no, it wasn't categorically dismissing California Chardonnay as incapable of aging. Far from it. Rather, you must understand my comment within the context in which it was offered: the likelihood of a late-'90s Chardonnay by a producer whose wines I am not very familiar with (I don't think I've had -- or seen -- a Gainey wine of any sort in at least a decade) being attractive at 8-9 years of age. What I was saying is that the odds are against him, since very few of the Chardonnays produced in that era have proved to be vibrant into their second decade of life. Yes, Mt. Eden, Montelena, Stony Hill (I'm surprised that no one mentioned them so far) are all well understood to make some serious, ageworthy Chardonnay, but they are drowned out in an ocean of low-acid, underfruited, overoaked wines that will have fallen apart by age 5, let alone age 10.

For another perspective, what I said is no different than saying that it's the rare Beaujolais that will improve with age beyond 5 years. Of course, there are numerous exceptions: Brun, the Gang of Four, Coudert, etc. I've spoken to people who've had lovely 30-year old Fleuries. But, again, statistically speaking, those wines amount to far less than 1% of the output of the region in the present era. I'd assert that the same holds for the wines mentioned in this thread. Even if we restrict our analysis to those Chardonnays selling for upwards of $20/bottle, I doubt that the long-aging examples would come close to amounting to 1% of the totality.

Perhaps you find a different situation there. I freely admit to not making much effort to explore the genre in recent years, though I typically do sample the Chardonnay at wineries I visit. If you'd like to place a wager on whether the Gainey Chard in question has survived to this date, I could probably arrange something for my next visit to the Bay Area Something tells me, though, that we both have more interesting things to put in our mouths than that...

Mark Lipton

Responding to several issues - but mostly to add some tasting notes from the past few days.
First the Southbrook Chardonnay 1997 (Niagara, Ontario). - Corked! (which doesn't help prove or disprove),
1998 Rully, le Meix Cadot - Jadot - failing fast; oxidation has taken its toll - well past its peak.
1993 Meursault, Casse Têtes - Verget - wonderful; great balance and elegance; the acidity has rounded out but still present. Probably at or near its peak, but certainly not past it.

So just fodder for the discussion. Yes, some wines age well - but many don't. Care needed (at least with Chardonnays).
But nobody has really convinced me on Sauvignon Blanc. Our blind tasting of Cloudy bay clearly showed a preference for some age (not 15 years though). Anybody else tried SB's of about 5-8 years old?

When my parents bought Ladera Vineyards in 2000 most of the land was planted to Chard and it was named Chateau Woltner a small cult Chard house which started in 83. We inherited some stock of older vintage Chards, some dating back to the mid 80s. Their style was a more acidic one thus some of the Chards actually did hold up well over time. I have not had one recently but would like to open a bigger bottle from the early 90s and see how it is doing. Other than that had a Trefethen 97 Chard about a month ago and it was still beautiful. Like everyone else here I think agrees it really depends on the Cali Chard producers typical profile to determine if it will hold up over time.

old SB -

recently a 2002 pouilly fume from tracy which had gained some depth and complexity and i think is not dead yet - i'll age the two remaining bottles further to see what happens. admittedly in the name of science.

and, damn my memory, four years ago in a salon in paris, a 1980 white bordeaux (ok, not ALL SB, some semillon) which was stupendous. I forget the name but can still recall how fresh and deep it tasted. i know - not much help.

older non Burg Chard -

last winter, an 1999 Ontario chard - Hernder Barrel fermented was alive and kicking, but is now beginning to fade, i think.

this year, a 1999 30 bench chardonnay, very deep, creamy, fruity and minerally, very much alive.

so some can live to be at least 8.

... my statement ... wasn't categorically dismissing California Chardonnay as incapable of aging. Far from it.

Hi Mark, we are not so far apart. "It is the rare CA Chardonnay that improves beyond age 5" drew response of direct experience that differed. Of course, I bought selectively, but not specifically to age. (California has been awash in oceans of me-too overoaked insipid Chardonnays since the 1980s, and I admit avoiding most of them.) It may even be the rare California Cabernet now that improves beyond age 5, considering all of them (many not even produced yet for 5 years!) but fortunately that doesn't dominate our views of what CA Cabernets can be.

If you'd like to place a wager on whether the Gainey Chard in question has survived to this date, I could probably arrange something for my next visit to the Bay Area

I haven't any more experience than you acknowledged above with the Gainey Chard (which therefore presumably didn't enter the "rare CA Chardonnay" characterization). I have an old friend who had a lot of opinions (varying in factual basis) and was confident enough to accept my offers to wager when I felt the factual data out of step with the confidence. Presently that became expensive for him. No data, no wager! [Trivia:That rhymes, in British and New England English.]

I have opened and tasted the few bottles from the Gainey winery in California that we had stored. The Chardonnay and Sauvignon Blanc from 1998 and 1999 that I had were opened over this past weekend.

The Sauvignon Blanc did not age well. I did not waste my time using it for the party. It was not worth the risk of being known as the host that was serving vinegar to his guests.

The Chardonnay was surprisingly tasty. I was thinking that this one would be the worst of the bunch but it turned out to be better than when it was bottled in 1999. It still had the buttery, vanilla like aroma and taste and just a hint of the oak flavor. It was just a tad drier than when it was first opened.

Thanks for all of your opinions.
John B.