OK, what else other than pinot noir

Rashaan, it take a BIG man to admit to a mistake. I did a swiss steak recipe tonight that called for 2 cloves of garlic, I used four, and made sure they were the biggest cloves on the entire head. Dinner is over, and the grand daughtersloved the steak, but they got none of the wine. I am still drinking the 2001 Tommasi ripasso Valpollicia red wine.What a great $15 bottle

My comment is that I wish I had enough money to open nice red Burgundy to go with my daily meals.

Damn it, Rahsaan, that's a stereotype I'd expect some place like the ERP site and I've fought it for years with counterexamples including here.* You are talking about my specialty as a wine consumer. Walt already made the point, there's much good Burgundy for lower prices than much bad US PN (and vice versa), all you have to do is know where to look. If I get het up I'll repost the whole of that section in a lively 1989 RFD (Internet) thread on value wines incl. inexpensive regional red Burgs, but anyway you might enjoy this sample:

For decades, good Riojas and Chiantis Classicos have sustained poor but knowledgeable graduate students in a state of estimable gastronomy, even as philistine suburban contemporaries paid top dollar for the privilege of consuming wines advertised on TV, or more recently, wines declared officially hip by [a wine critic] or [a wine periodical].

*[Repeating from another posting Nov 20] Because I and many folk I know like Pinot-Noir wines (most of which still are, and all of which used to be, made outside the Americas) I came to special interest in inexpensive red Burgundies, which can give amazing value in the $10-$25 range. One aspect of these wines is that they often need a year or two, they're often not prime to drink when released to market. The other main feature is that they aren't wines to buy by formula -- by seeing a list of specific recommendations. Rather, you learn what to look for generally, then try new ones steadily, and when you find one you like, pounce. I've found several dozen notable wines in this category from Burgundy in the last 25 years at $10-$25 (2007 dollars) and some of them were very good, far above expectation for that price range. Typical label appellations of these have been Bourgognes Rouges (the most basic label); Côte d'Or regionals (Côte de Beaune, Côte de Nuits, Hauts-Côte-de-Beaune, Chorey-les-Beaune, etc.) or wines at "village" level or above, either less trophiphied or less pronounceable (Aloxe-Corton, Auxey-Duresses, Santenay, St.-Aubin); and labels from the up-and-coming, not-yet-chic Côte Chalonnaise (Givry, Mercurey, Montagny, Rully, etc.). It helps if it's a good Burgundy year. 2005 is a good Burgundy year.

Even now in the price-inflated 2005 Burgundy vintage, I recently found a few glorious wines with more-fashionable label appellations (in the Côte de Beaune specifically) at $20 to $30 via deliberate regular blind tasting with groups of like-minded consumers (the best and most economical technique for these searches) -- a recent tasting of eight fine 2005 Côte d'Or Burgundies split among 13 tasters cost us all of $34 each. (Incidentally Claude Kolm was at that one as well.)

Since it's Tuesday (still) I'll respond in kind It all comes down to what we mean by aged: I was thinking of the '59s and '61s I've had over the past 5 years. With 40+ years, I find the ones I've tried to be quite ethereal (but far from insubstantial), with a mouthfeel akin to that of old-style GR Rioja or aged Burgundy. Is that "light"? Maybe not; perhaps we should call it "graceful" instead. Whatever it is, it's a far cry from a 10-year old Cab (or Bdx for that matter).

Wednesday, and I'm still ready to argue!
I don't get enough 40+ Bordeaux to include it in my pairing choices. Since we were talking "cheaper than young Bordeaux at auction" I wasn't talking '61 or '59!

Max,
excellent (if small font!) summary. One question- is Chorey not a village? Excellent shopping advice, prices are up on '05s but I think there are still some bargains to be found.

More and more we try very hard to match food with wine for my daily dose of alcohol. Tonight we had delicious pork pasta in a cream sauce. The recipe recommended a PN or a Chard. I opened a $15 Oregon PN and everyone loved it (three of us). To prevent boredom I then opened a nice Spanish Tempranillo and asked for comments. Everyone liked the Spanish wine but preferred the PN, myself included. What is this world coming to? A good Oregon PN or village Burg seems to go with almost everything. This has nothing to do with "Sideways" but has all to do with food/wine matches. Good acidity, good fruit, nice balance seems to do it all. In general I find myself opening PN on an everyday basis to go with food. Any comments?
Walt

Walt,
Where the HELL are you finding Oregon Pinot Noir for $15? I thought it was extinct !

Bill,
You are probably right that they are hard to find. The wine I opened was '05 Brandborg a beautiful PN from the Upqua Valley in Oregon that cost $17. Unfortunately I only bought 6 bottles. Met the wine maker at a tasting in April at a very expensive wine store. Figured at a normal place it would be less $$.
Walt

I think I will argue with the idea, however, of aged Bdx being a lighter red. It certainly can be

My experience supports Dale's. A point I haven't seen here yet is that significant numbers of Bordeaux are customarily made to result in lighter wines on maturity; they are just unpretentious, less concentrated, less expensive wines. Old British terms mentioned in late 20th c. US wine writing was "luncheon Claret" which IMO wrongly suggests frivolousness. Once Kermit Lynch made an offering a group of them at moderate prices; I bought, they developed well. Related repostings below. Château Larose-Trintaudon is "the largest estate in the Médoc" and a quality moderately-priced Bordeaux for decades [I think it was one of the Lynch offerings too; more recently ran circa USD $14 in early-mid 90s vintages] -- the one with the dark-red label. Note trouble in spelling "Trintaudon" below.

In contrast I've had 30, even 50-year-old 1st growth Bordeaux that still tasted young as though developing.


--------
Charles Hunt, 22-Apr-85 Newsgroups: net.wines

Right now, there are dozens of fine bordeaux available ... For small estates (called "petit chateaux"), there are many available for <= $6; I personally recommend: La Tour de By, Fourcas Hosten, Fourcas Dupree, Greysac, Larose Trantadon, de Pez, Ormes de Pez, Marbuzet, Haut Marbuzet, Phelan Segur, Carbonnieux, Smith Haute Lafitte, Plagnac, Bel-Air, ... they all have a "Chateau" before the name to impress your friends, but are mostly really just farms.


Stephen P Pope, 28 Feb 86: Subject: Re: Cheap Bordeaux

I would like to add a few -- Ch. Larose Trintadoun, Ch. Le Crock, and Ch. Potensac.


Charles Hunt, 3 Mar 86: Subject: Re: Cheap Bordeaux

I forgot about Larose Trintadon (Haut Medoc). I agree that it's an excellent Bordeaux for a modest price (the '78 is unreal... if you can find it). [That was the Lynch offering, something like $5 at the time. -- MH]

This chateau is owned by the firm which runs Marques de Caceres in the Rioja-Alta of Spain. [Aha! --MH] The similarities in style (despite the differing grape varieties) is not coincidence. For a fun experience (when you have somebody over for dinner), try a side-by-side comparison of the 1981 Marques-de-Caceres Red with a '79 or '81 Larose-Trintadon. It makes it quite evident what a real bargain the Rioja is at only about 5 bucks per jug. [Note: Ownership changed, 1986. -- MH]

I am mostly a lurker here. I don't post much but I read a lot. Please don't get me wrong.. everyone here is very nice but I really do not have the expertise that many here have in spades... and that can be a bit intimidating. In short, I hesitate to offer my opinions. I'm not an expert taster and probably never will be. Still I know what I like and drink wine regularly...almost every day.

But I have found based solely on what I have been drinking that I am drinking less and less "big" reds and more and more pinot noir/burgundy. It not only goes better with almost any food but it also is a lot more subtle and satisfying to me. And it also seems that in the pinot noir world I am gravitating more and more to Oregon. It's not that I don't like burgundy or the California PN's... I do ... but the style, fruitiness and balance of the Oregon pinots seems to sing louder to me. This was not a plan or a plot, it just seemed to happen. And who knows, it might change.

Anyway, thank you all for your posts. I may not respond much but I certainly appreciate your wine wisdom.

Glenn

My comment is that I wish I had enough money to open nice red Burgundy to go with my daily meals.

Damn it, Rahsaan, that's a stereotype I'd expect some place like the ERP site and I've fought it for years with counterexamples including here.* You are talking about my specialty as a wine consumer.

Ok, fine, there are a number of ways to enjoy Burgundy. I'll admit it.

For the finesse-filled regal experience that many of us associate with the Heights of Burgundy, it may be necessary to spend some money.

But yes, that's not the only way to enjoy it..

I am mostly a lurker here. I don't post much but I read a lot. ... In short, I hesitate to offer my opinions. ...Still I know what I like and drink wine regularly...almost every day.

Thank you for posting, Glenn. That is what it is all about and I take my hat off to anyone who will come forward with an honest opinion (in what can be, yes, an intimidating process).
-- Max

Newsgroups: rec.food.drink
Subject: The wine-anxiety phenomenon
Summary: In discussions, opinions are valuable
Date: 29 Apr 87 07:37:36 GMT
Distribution: na
One of the great obstacles to communicating about wine is many people's reluctance to express their own opinion. They too often fear that they lack enough experience to comment, or that others will judge them based on their opinions, or that they lack the "lingo" and will sound foolish (an unfortunate effect of all of that intimidating terminology that some people use so freely, and maybe a deliberate one). Rendering an honest opinion is both one of the most frightful and one of the most valuable contributions a person can make in a serious wine discussion.

But I have found based solely on what I have been drinking that I am drinking less and less "big" reds and more and more pinot noir/burgundy. It not only goes better with almost any food but it also is a lot more subtle and satisfying to me. And it also seems that in the pinot noir world I am gravitating more and more to Oregon. It's not that I don't like burgundy or the California PN's... I do ... but the style, fruitiness and balance of the Oregon pinots seems to sing louder to me. This was not a plan or a plot, it just seemed to happen. And who knows, it might change.

Glenn

Glenn,
Think you are more experienced and know more than you admit. The life of a wine geek tends to go through progressions. It is a gross generalization but think most end up with the more complex wines than the big over-the-top stuff. Like you I love PN, obviously since I started the thread, but find Oregon to be a nice compromise between many CA PNs that can be too big and alcoholic and Burgs which many times can be a mine field of the great, the good but sometimes the bad. For many years I tasted everything, usually in blind formats. I slowed down on large tastings and now select my wines based more on food match and what my wife enjoys.

Where are you in Virginia? My hometown is Charlottesville.

Walt

I live in Herndon, near DC. And thanks for the kind reply.

Glenn