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Grape names with accents

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Gary Barlettano

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Re: Grape names with accents

by Gary Barlettano » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:38 am

Paul Winalski wrote:How long has ß been officially deprecated?


Paul, the ß has not been deprecated. They've just aligned its usage with that of the other consonants. Again, the basic rule is that a single consonant indicates that the preceding vowel is long, whereas a double consonant indicates that the preceding vowel is short. (There are still exceptions and a few other rules which don't need to be discussed here.)

ß, (scharfes s), is considered a single consonant and ss is its doubled counterpart. In the old orthography ß still showed up as an exception to be memorized preceding short vowels, e.g. muß which now must be written muss. The same goes for daß/dass, floß/floss etc. If, however, you can't type an ß, then ss is OK, but that's the way it's always been just like adding an e after a, o, u if you can't type an umlaut.

These and other long debated changes were introduced in '04, taught in schools since August '06 as optional, and then in August '07 became binding. There are tweaks for other German-speaking countries outside the FRG.

The whole thing is laid out here: Deutsche Rechtschreibung, if you want to plough through it. And there are quite a few other places on the web where the changes are catalogued and explained. Just type in deutsche Rechtschreibung.

So, just keep on using that good old ß, just use it in the right places. :lol:
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Re: Grape names with accents

by Neil Courtney » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:40 am

If you are using MS Word another way of not having to key the accents is to use the Auto Correct feature. I have set up gw to be corrected to Gewurztraminer, but without the accent, because I couldn't be bothered to set it up that way. Maybe I now need to have the gwu string entered to include the umlout u.
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Re: Grape names with accents

by Gary Barlettano » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:48 am

Neil Courtney wrote:If you are using MS Word another way of not having to key the accents is to use the Auto Correct feature. I have set up gw to be corrected to Gewurztraminer, but without the accent, because I couldn't be bothered to set it up that way. Maybe I now need to have the gwu string entered to include the umlout u.


Neil, it's been noted above, but the absolute easiest way to create most of these characters is with the little program at AllChars for Windows. You tap Ctrl and then the appropriate character combination and the modifed character appears. There's no need to remember ASCII codes etc. and so on. The neat thing about this little add-on is that you can type these characters anywhere, e.g. in Outlook, Word, search engine etc.
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Re: Accents

by Bernard Roth » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:59 am

There is no need to use bizarre key=stroke combinations.

In Windows, use the "Character Map" function that you find under System Tools in your Start Menu/Programs. I put a shortcut on my desktop so I can quickly get thousands of font characters.
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Re: Accents

by Max Hauser » Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:45 am

Bernard -- to extend your own logic! -- there is no need to use any Windows function at all. Or program. Or keystrokes.

Just copy and paste from this thread (early, where we showed a lot of characters.) In whatever operating system you run. Windows, Mac, *nix, X-tools, Sunview, ...

IMO, the benefits of copy-paste are undercredited. After all, that's what a dictionary is. How else, moreover, can one, without a photographic memory, instantly and precisely recall important famous spellings like Jardín Zoológico, Viele Grüße, "Santé, gaieté, espérance!," de Vogüé, Légion étrangèr, Szczebrzeszyn, Dumpingsvorwürfen, Jalapeño, M. le Grand Connétable Louis-Marc Chevignard, Trzésniewski, Prónay?

Let alone Dönnhoff Schloßböckelheimer Felsenberg Riesling Spätlese Trocken 1999.

(And Gary, those ß/ss rules recall the old long and short S in English, only we got rid of that 200 years ago. Long S survives just in mathematics, as the integral or continuous-summation sign, counterpart of Greek capital sigma for discrete summation.)
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Re: Grape names with accents

by Michael Pronay » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:05 am

Tim York wrote:Note that in French, if capital letters are being used, there are no accents. (My AZERTY keyboard has no facility for putting them on capitals except for the circumflex and umlaut.) But this rule is frequently ignored in practice for avoidance of ambiguity, as can be seen on sign boards all round France.

Sorry Tim, but this simply is not true, there is no such rule. However, even most French ignore this. It is perfectly legal to use accents on French capital letters, although it's not done in 95% of the cases. There is a governing body for such details called "Académie Française" who precised that.
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Re: Grape names with accents

by Tim York » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:29 am

Re: Capital letters in French

Sorry, Michael, what I say about my (French Belgian) AZERTY keyboard is 100% correct. As for usage I think I am saying the same as you in different words.
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Re: Grape names with accents

by Michael Pronay » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:33 am

OK then, sorry for the misunderstanding.
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Re: Grape names with accents

by Tim York » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:45 am

Humble apologies, Michael, and to everyone else. It would seem as if absence of accents on capitals is actually incorrect -

http://www.academie-francaise.fr/langue ... centuation
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Re: Accents

by Gary Barlettano » Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:44 am

Max Hauser wrote:And Gary, those ß/ss rules recall the old long and short S in English, only we got rid of that 200 years ago. Long S survives just in mathematics, as the integral or continuous-summation sign, counterpart of Greek capital sigma for discrete summation.)

Well, nonetheless Max, those are the rules established by the Zwischenstaatliche Kommission für deutsche Rechtschreibung back in 2004 and those are the ones being taught in school now. They actually make sense ... in a descriptively linguistic way ... but someone will come along and change them again in 50 or so years.
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Re: Accents

by Michael Pronay » Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:21 pm

Gary,

actually the rules of the Zwischenstaatliche Kommission were established in 1996. There were some (smaller) modifications later on.

Take a look: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechtschreibreform
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Re: Accents

by Gary Barlettano » Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:49 pm

Michael Pronay wrote:Gary,

actually the rules of the Zwischenstaatliche Kommission were established in 1996. There were some (smaller) modifications later on.

Take a look: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechtschreibreform


Yes, but the '96 results were obsoleted and the eventual final regulations from the KMK are based on the '04 report. Bottom line, however, is that our good old ß is still being used in writing and not only in Schoko-Schnittchen.

From the '04 report:

Vorbemerkung zur überarbeiteten Fassung 2004

Die Zwischenstaatliche Kommission für deutsche Rechtschreibung hat
sich seit ihrer Konstituierung 1997 mit der Einführung und Umsetzung
der neuen Rechtschreibung intensiv beschäftigt und ihre Stellungnahmen
und Empfehlungen in zweijährlichen Berichten den zuständigen
staatlichen Stellen zugeleitet. Der letzte, vierte Bericht und die dazugehörige Ergänzung enthielten eine Reihe von Änderungsvorschlägen,
denen die Kultusministerkonferenz (KMK) auf ihrer Sitzung am 4. Juni
2004 zugestimmt hat und über die Einvernehmen mit den zuständigen
staatlichen Stellen in Liechtenstein, Österreich und der Schweiz hergestellt
wurde.

Auftragsgemäß hat nun die Zwischenstaatliche Kommission den amtlichen
Text „Deutsche Rechtschreibung. Regeln und Wörterverzeichnis“
entsprechend diesen beschlossenen Änderungen modifiziert und
die vorliegende Fassung erstellt.

Die zuständigen Instanzen in den vier deutschsprachigen Staaten haben
bestätigt, dass die 1996 beschlossene Übergangsfrist hinsichtlich der
Neuregelung für Schulen und öffentliche Stellen, für die der Staat Regelungskompetenz hat, mit dem 31. Juli 2005 endet.

In der hier vorliegenden Fassung des amtlichen Regelwerks sind alle
Modifikationsbeschlüsse der zuständigen staatlichen Stellen umgesetzt;
sie ist die Grundlage für die Arbeit an der Weiterentwicklung der
deutschen Rechtschreibung.

Die Zwischenstaatliche Kommission dankt allen, die sie in ihrer Arbeit
unterstützt, konstruktive Kritik geübt und Verbesserungsvorschläge
unterbreitet haben. Sie dankt insbesondere auch dem Institut für Deutsche
Sprache in Mannheim, das die Geschäftsstelle beherbergt hat.

Mannheim, im November 2004


The whole thing and other docs are here: [url=http://www.ids-mannheim.de/reform/]Dokumente zu den Inhalten der Rechtschreibreform.
[/url]
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Re: Accents

by Michael Pronay » Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:51 pm

Gary, the title says it all: "Überarbeitete Fassung 2004" which I would translate to "Updated version 2004".

Anyhow, I don't know whether you know usenet. There is an extremely active group — news:de.etc.sprache.deutsch — that has been discussing the RSR (Rechtschreibreform) in extenso these last 11 years, and I am a regular over there, too.

But in priciple our opinions do not differ at all. The rules concerning "ß" are the same since 1996, they haven't been modified at all. Nearly all modifications between 1996 and 2004 concern GZS (Getrennt- und Zusammenschreibung), the part of the RSR that more or less failed.
Last edited by Michael Pronay on Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Grape names with accents

by Neil Courtney » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:18 pm

Getting back to my original question, does anyone know yet why I can not see some accents on THIS forum? I can not see the upside down ^ accent on the a (Băbească Neagră - #259), the upside down ^ c (Dobričić - #269, #263) and the u ~ (tilde) (Hárslevelű - #369).

I don't think it is a skin problem as I use aluminoid in FireFox 2 and Sue uses the default skin in IE 6. Both of us can not see these characters.
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Re: Grape names with accents

by Victor de la Serna » Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:08 pm

Wikipedia ( :shock: ) sometimes errs, Neil: it's indeed carmenère, not carménère, and cainho branco is not the same grape variety as alvarinho (or caíño blanco is not the same grape variety as albariño, on the northern side of the Minho/Miño river...)

A few more grape names with accents to complement the wiki-list:

-mencía (main red grape of northwestern Spain)
-sérine (the local name of syrah in the Côte-Rôtie)
-mandó (a red variety from eastern Spain)
-samsó (a Catalan synonym for either carignan or cinsaut, depending on the part of Catalonia where it's used)
-sousón (the Galician, i.e. Spanish, spelling of sousão)
-prié blanc, prié rouge (Val d'Aosta varieties)
-castelão francês (a.k.a. periquita, a red Portuguese variety)
-juan garcía (red variety from west-central Spain)
-juan ibáñez/moristel (red variety from Aragón, in Spain)
-tinto aragonés, tinta del país (local names of tempranillo in Ribera del Duero)
-jaén (southern Spanish white variety - not to be confused with Portugal's jaen, which is the same as Spain's mencía)
-listán (another name for palomino)
-provechón (aonther name for bobal)
-kéknyelü (meaning 'blue stem'; the best white variety from the Lake Balaton area of Hungary)
-país (the South American name of California's mission grape)
-muscat blanc à petits grains (the small-berried muscat grape)
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Re: Grape names with accents

by Neil Courtney » Tue Dec 25, 2007 5:25 pm

Thanks Victor. Maybe someone should update the Wikipedia pages.
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Re: Grape names with accents

by Michael Pronay » Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:47 am

Just make sure that the u in "kéknyelü" does not carry an umlaut/diaresis, but a doubble acute accent ... :D
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Re: Grape names with accents

by Bill Hooper » Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:09 pm

Michael Pronay wrote:Just make sure that the u in "kéknyelü" does not carry an umlaut/diaresis, but a doubble acute accent ... :D


ű :D Hungarian is difficult, no?
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Re: Grape names with accents

by Bill Hooper » Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:11 pm

Bill Hooper wrote:
Michael Pronay wrote:Just make sure that the u in "kéknyelü" does not carry an umlaut/diaresis, but a doubble acute accent ... :D


ű :D Hungarian is difficult, no?


Hmmm, it wouldn't let that character slide. I have it in Microsoft word.
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Re: Grape names with accents

by Max Hauser » Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:29 pm

Michael Pronay wrote:Just make sure that the u in "kéknyelü" does not carry an umlaut/diaresis, but a doubble acute accent ... :D

Everyone, please remember that. :D

One day I hope to learn something I haven't asked before, which is why Hr. Prónay accents his name in print but not online. (I'd guess because of computer font issues as discussed here; but I don't really know.)

In the light of the quotation above, I'm inspired to share this paragraph from some writing I did about communications a few years back. (Not Wine Related.)

Polish family name Ryszczyc ("roosh-chitz" phonetically, US) owns some importance among cool spellings in Roman alphabet. However a co-worker (Janusz), originally from Poland, caught the spirit of this and submits, with pride, the nouns chrzaszcz (beetles; the A has a diacritical below, sound resembles the on of French Dijon), and Szczebrzeszyn, the town name and according to Janusz, a trying pronunciation even for native speakers. [Those acquainted even slightly with Slavic languages but not Polish will see at once why the letter groups SZ and CZ there have separate names, respectively "shah" and "chah." The sounds that anglicize as sh, ch, and shch are frequent in Slavic languages, each having a single letter in the Cyrillic alphabet. In the Roman, as used in Poland, they become SZ, CZ, SZCZ.]
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Re: Grape names with accents

by Michael Pronay » Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:46 am

Max, your presumption is right. Another fact is that some search engines and computer programs are kind of "diacritically challenged", e.g. alphabeticizing "ó" after "z". My cell phone does that, btw.
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Re: Grape names with accents

by Victor de la Serna » Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:17 pm

Funny you should correct me, yet you don't seem to be able to write the name of the grape correctly yourself, Michael! :lol:

I was a little lazy, indeed. But it's not so difficult. But kéknyelü is easier to read than kéknyelű - isn't it?
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