Benchmarkwine Spam

I'm getting an awful lot of spam - averaging one a day - from Benchmarkwine across all my email addresses, include dormant ones that I never ever publicise.

Their emails say

You are receiving this email because you signed up for information like this from Benchmark Wine Group. To unsubscribe, simply click the following link: Unsubscribe

Benchmark Wine Group
474 Technology Way
Napa, CA 94558
US

Since they are US retaillers and I am in the UK, and since some of the email address are ones I don't use, it is obvious that I did not sign up and that the address must have been harvested, probably because they are associated with wine related domain names.

OK its spam, and I've now marked it as such so it'll vanish into the spam folder, but Benchmarkwines was listed as a WLDG recommended operation.

Its not the sort of behaviour I'd expect from a reputable operation and even if I was a potential customer and had asked from info, a daily marketing email seems excessive.

What did they do to get a WLDG recco?*

From a dormant email address I just logged onto:

Benchmark Wine Group The Night Before Christmas Mon Dec 24, 2007 18k
Cooking.com Perfect Last-Minute Gift + New Closeouts Mon Dec 24, 2007 26k
Mr. Chang Yang I AWAIT YOUR RESPONSE . Sun Dec 23, 2007 15k
Target Get a Target Holiday Shopping Gift Card! Sun Dec 23, 2007 19k
Benchmark Wine Group New List: Ten Percent Off Fri Dec 21, 2007 63k
Benchmark Wine Group New Collection - Rarities and 100 Pointers Fri Dec 21, 2007 18k
Cooking.com Holiday Sales Ending: All-Clad, Wusthof, Cuisinart, KitchenAid... Fri Dec 21, 2007 31k
Bonita Daley online slot machines Thu Dec 20, 2007 2k
Benchmark Wine Group The Best of the Best Thu Dec 20, 2007 66k
Benchmark Wine Group Bordeaux, Italy, Spain Wed Dec 19, 2007 29k


*the post where they are recommended http://www.wineloverspage.com/forum/vil ... chmarkwine

Peter, Dale Williams may be able to shed more light on Benchmark -- he contributed their name to Jancis's list indicating that they were good on reasonably priced older Bordeaux and Burgundy. See his list here.

I don't know them personally.

Regards, Bob

[Robin Garr]

What did they do to get a WLDG recco?*

Peter, I think it's clear that this firm was not an *institutional* reccomendation but was listed in the content of a WLDG post. As Bob points out, it might be best to ask Dale about his personal experience with the firm.

I would also observe, that while their mass mailing is certainly wrong, this is an entirely different level of spam from Russian or Chinese criminals using captured spambot computers to distribute fraudulent solicitations. These guys need to be brought up short, but it's a sin more venial than mortal, it seems to me. I would certainly contact them and insist on having all the addresses removed; I would probably stop short of lecturing them further if I wanted to have them speedily comply rather than laugh at me.

[David M. Bueker]

Don't hate on Benchmark too much. They have always ben a good source (though Stefan Blicker has since moved on to his own venture) & straight to deal with. I think at this point they may be getting e-mails from other on-line retailers. They are not getting it from here that's for sure, because we would all be getting it.

And by the way - it's just an e-mail which is easily deleted. Why is this so terrible? People get direct snail mail all the time & nobody is getting their knickers in a twist about that.

E-mail is now marketing. Relax & hit the delete button.

[Robin Garr]

And by the way - it's just an e-mail which is easily deleted. Why is this so terrible? People get direct snail mail all the time & nobody is getting their knickers in a twist about that.

E-mail is now marketing. Relax & hit the delete button.

Pretty much what I said, although I'd still argue that there's a distinction between this kind of mass mail (which I don't think is a good business practice) and criminal spam using 'bots to flood the market with scam solicitations.

[David M. Bueker]

Direct mail (in this case e-mail) has never been all that effective, but it's cheap (and cheaper now), so if one or two fish get caught then it's well worth it & actually a good business practice, because the people it annoys are pretty much always the ones who would never have shopped there in the first place.

As Bob points out, it might be best to ask Dale about his personal experience with the firm.

I bought some older Bordeaux from Benchmark when Stefan Blicker was there. Since he left (formed Blicker-Pierce) I have found their offerings less interesting (not the wines, the prices) and seldom buy. But they have generally been good to work with, shipping as requested, promptly notifying me and refunding when some prearrival bottles showed up as leakers, etc. Still occasional buyer.

I'm sorry that Peter is upset, but agree that targeted emails (I assume they bought a list) is different than bulk viagra spam. Actually, the term spam was orginally dependent on it being untargeted (in fora off-topic), though now folks seem to use it for any commercial mailing.

Besides the dozen+ retailers I buy from, I probably get 6 or 8 unsolicited wine emails a day. On the scale of things that pales compared to the bulk untargeted stuff. I assume these retailers (and in a mirror of Peter's experience, a fair number of mine are British though I've never bought in London- just got my daily mail from George Rhys at Southwick Court Fine Wines Ltd )are buying lists. How those are compiled is a tangled questions. If it really bothered me I'd try the unsubscribe.

And by the way - it's just an e-mail which is easily deleted. Why is this so terrible? .

Because they send one every day, because they are supposed to be a reputable company, because they said Iasked for them when I didn't.

[David M. Bueker]

And by the way - it's just an e-mail which is easily deleted. Why is this so terrible? .

Because they send one every day, because they are supposed to be a reputable company, because they said Iasked for them when I didn't.

So unsubscribe. I just really don't get why it bugs you so much. Most e-mail programs also let you direct the stuff to a spam folder - even less recurring work.

I'd still argue that there's a distinction between this kind of mass mail (which I don't think is a good business practice) and criminal spam using 'bots to flood the market with scam solicitations.

Agree there's a big difference; one is unsolicited advertising of goods/services that actually exist and can be purchased, the other is outright criminal fraud.

So unsubscribe. I just really don't get why it bugs you so much. Most e-mail programs also let you direct the stuff to a spam folder - even less recurring work.

David

As my first post made quite clear, I have done so.

Spam doesn't bug me; I have a number of email addresses some of which have been on websites for more than a decade. I get a considerable amount of it and know how to deal with it

It was just finding 900+ emails from one legit company made me want to ask if perhaps someone here knew more about the company and its way of business.

[Robin Garr]

Agree there's a big difference; one is unsolicited advertising of goods/services that actually exist and can be purchased, the other is outright criminal fraud.

I agree, Peter, but I also agree with David. Simply tell them to stop, but don't take it so personally. I really doubt that they are sitting back in Napa saying, "Let's torment Peter May."

A note about unsubscribing from email lists. Our travel agent's husband is in the direct mail business, quite unrepentant, puts together email lists of addresses and sells the lists to advertisers. Been doing so for at least ten years since I first met him.

One list he offers -- and does very well with he says -- are email addresses of people who have asked to be deleted from email distribution lists.

Their great value is that the email addresses are almost certainly current and being used by real people -- otherwise there wouldn't be a request to be deleted.

If anyone has any questions about John's business, I would be glad to forward them to him -- it's quite interesting how it actually works.

***

For the record, Benchmark seems to have a very good privacy policy, on paper at least:

Benchmark Wine Group values the privacy of its customers. We will not divulge your personal information outside of the company except in the unlikely event of a court order. Should you request your Email address be removed from our mailing list, we will do so immediately. Unless you request otherwise, we may occasionally allow our equity affiliates to let you know what they are doing.

If you believe you received a solicitation or communication from any other entity as a result of registering at Benchmark Wine Group or signing up for our Email distribution, please contact us immediately

Privacy Contact information

If you have any questions, concerns, or comments about our privacy policy you may contact us using the information below:

* By E-Mail:sales@benchmarkwine.com
* By Phone: 707-255-3500

Regards, Bob

[Robin Garr]

A note about unsubscribing from email lists. Our travel agent's husband is in the direct mail business, quite unrepentant, puts together email lists of addresses and sells the lists to advertisers. Been doing so for at least ten years since I first met him.

One list he offers -- and does very well with he says -- are email addresses of people who have asked to be deleted from email distribution lists.

Bob, that's outrageous and truly uncivilized business behavior, worthy of monkeywrenching. Would you object to outing this "gentleman" in a public post?

I've heard re unsubscribing being a way for your email to be confirmed. One has to weigh probabilities. I'd never "unsubscribe" to a Viagra, penis enlargement, weight loss, internet gambling, replica watches, etc site. But if it was irritating me and I was getting email from a actual well-known retailer, I'd probably take the chance they weren't selling those names (although some are using email management sites).

Turn around is fair play. When I'm in the mood I like to mine emails from companies like this. Then I flood them with emails with large .jpg attachments and thank them for wanting to be my email pal but if they change their mind they can just delete them, or write me an apology.

Kevin

by the way, if perchance you did sign up for Brentwood Wine Auction's mailings, Benchmark is same ownership I believe.

"Bob, that's outrageous and truly uncivilized business behavior, worthy of monkeywrenching. Would you object to outing this "gentleman" in a public post?"

Robin, I'm a little uncomfortable, only because my "evidence" is purely based on conversations about how the direct email business works. I'm not absolutely certain, for example, that John buys or sells lists of that type, but I am sure he described the existence of those kinds of lists and that they sold at a premium because they were "live".

My impression is that many sources will provide these lists -- perhaps by telephone. Google lists dozens of sources for email lists of various sorts.

My personal view is that the company selling is the real culprit here -- there was some sort of a business relationship between me and the seller of my address. Often, the Privacy Notices are written to be at least ambiguous as to whether selling opted out email addresses will not be done.

Like Dale, I never opt out, unless I'm dealing with a company I believe is reputable and would never sell my address.

At the end of the day, though, so long as retailers can get 2 to 3% response rates from addressees -- and at almost no cost beyond buying the lists and drafting up their promotional materials -- there will be many folks in the business of collecting and selling addresses.

Thankfully, Hotmail has greatly improved its spam catcher so I don't have to change providers in the way I've been tempted to just a year ago. Rather than opting out, I click on the phishing button and it's very nice how soon emails stop coming. I haven't had a Nigerian spam for over three months, and used to get dozens a week.

I'll give John a call over New Years and discuss the matter further. I'll revert whatever he tells me. I do remember that he said that folks who gather email addresses tend not to discuss their methods -- it "would be giving away competitive information for free."

Regards, Bob

by the way, if perchance you did sign up for Brentwood Wine Auction's mailings, Benchmark is same ownership I believe.

That's also my understanding, Dale, that they're allied.

I used to buy some from Brentwood, and I've spoken a couple of times with Dave Parker, the owner, and he's a very nice guy, and everything I got from them was in great shape; however, I don't find the prices as compelling as they once were. Ditto Benchmark. (Plus, cross country shipping costs have at least doubled in the past few years.)

I've been targeted by Benchmark's recent e-mail blitzkrieg; if the general field is something I'm already interested in, like wine, I guess don't mind unsolicited e-mails so much.

Robin and David,

Both of you guys seem to think that spam emails lacking criminal intent are OK. You are both very wrong. Although it has been a while since I saw the statistics, the Internet infrastructure now handles more spam per day than it does legitimate email. This degrades bandwidth and requires unnecessary investment in the purchase of servers and the like to handle the garbage email traffic.

The bottom line is that the internet infrastructure in not free; we are all paying for it in one way or the other. Please don't brush off commercial email spam as petty victimless crime.

-- Clark

[David M. Bueker]

Clark,

I disagree with you.

Clark,
I think that the kind of unsolicted email that is clogging the system is true spam- untargeted, indiscriminate email. When I get wine emails (whether from Nat Decants, a retailer, or whatever), I figure that it is targeted, even if I didn't ask for it.
I've always assumed that the emails for Viagra, penile enlargement, debt consolidation, work from home, replica watches, or from folks in foreign countries who need my help transferring millions of dollars were true spam.

Randy,
I'd call neither of those spam. I'd call them irritating, obnoxious, and bad business, but not spam. I realize I'm fighting a losing battle here, everybody just calls all commercial emails spam, but the term was based on its unsolicited indiscriminate nature. The most famous early case wasn't email, but the Green Card ads on Usenet newsgroups. The commercial nature wasn't the issue (that would have been a smaller fight if they were posting to immigration fora), but the fact is was posted on every available forum - wine, pets, kinky sex, British history, etc. The email form of this - where spammers sent millions of emails to every email they can harvest (or in some cases based on just common combinations of letters/names added to a domain name) is what drowns the system.

Assuming Peter didn't sign up with Benchmark, Brentwood, or their affiliates, it is likely they bought a "wine" list from a marketeer. As they say "you signed up", that makes them dishonest and is certainly a mark against them. But I was just pointing out that targeted lists are NOT what is straining the infrastructure, and I doubt seriously one could find any internet professional who would take that stance.

[David M. Bueker]

In the grand scheme of things aren't we taking some e-mails a little too seriously?