Boy, here's proof that we can really use a little PC, if only, self imposed.

"The basic reason for woman's ignorance of wine is her deep instinctive jealousy of it, as her most dangerous rival in the affections of intelligent men."

Woodrow Wyatt, Saintsbury oration, 1954.

Petronella Wyatt, his daughter, called Wyatt "the last great English eccentric", but I don't see why his views should be perpetuated. [Prince quoted him in the email transmitting the most recent PinotFile, hopefully as a bit of misplaced humor.]

, 1954.
I don't see why his views should be perpetuated.

so why perpetuate them here?

.... because maybe I'm off base -- lots of folks have criticized PC approaches here in the past.

You're saying that male chauvinist pigs aren't kosher?

-Paul W.

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone, Peter and Paul -- neither of you has posted anything offensive to anyone over the years I've been reading your stuff.

My belief:

this is a stupid insulting quote for a merchant to send to his clients, some of whom may be women and others of whom (like me) who are offended by the substance of the quote.

But, as I mentioned, perhaps I'm wrong.

Bob; I think the fact that he said it in 1954 might be illuminating. There was no PC then other than fear of being thought to be a communist. And I'd guess that wine was pretty much an "old boys" club in those days. Since I was only seven then, I wasn't a member.

Well he was a bit of an old crock, Steve. I was a junior in high school that year -- probably would have found it hilarious and well founded -- although I was truly totally ignorant about wine -- at that time.

I'm really surprised though that Prince quoted him in 2007.

The generational divide is pretty apparent here. To me (and I'm 30), the comment is so completely absurd that it merits a chuckle for just that, like an Oberon Kant quote would.

Context is everything, Bill. Just to be fair to Prince, here's the entire email:

Hi Crew

Attached is the latest Pinot File, Volume 6, Issue 49. Features include: Pinot Noir All-Americans 2007, Best American Value Pinot Noirs 2007, Burgundies of Great Interest 2007, Other Wines to Recommend from 2007, More Best Ofs, Pinot Briefs, Wine Serving Temperatures, The Long and Winding Pinot Road.

"The basic reason for woman's ignorance of wine is her deep instinctive jealousy of it, as her most dangerous rival in the affections of intelligent men." Woodrow Wyatt, Saintsbury oration, 1954.

Prince

*****

Frankly, I don't see how quoting an absurd statement contributes anything positive in this transmittal letter. A smiley face would have tipped me off, if that's the writer's intention.

But, I've been called an OF before.

Thanks for the insight, Bill. Regards, Bob

I'm a 44 year old wine-buying woman. I just kind of shrugged and thought "I've known some men like!" meaning the ones with wandering affections in the quote!

It seems a little out of context to me in the e-mail you quote, but it didn't bother me.

Bob; I think the fact that he said it in 1954 might be illuminating. There was no PC then other than fear of being thought to be a communist. And I'd guess that wine was pretty much an "old boys" club in those days. Since I was only seven then, I wasn't a member.

Depends on your geography, of course--the original PC was of course the fear of being thought not to be a communist.

Bob, I've had a Google for that quotation to see in what context it was made.

I've found a few Wyatt quotations, but the only hit I get on the one you're posted is ......... your post here.

Seems you have well and truly propagated it.

[James Roscoe]

I have been accused of being a MCP and I think Cynthia still likes me? This PC stuff is for the birds. Common sense and decency are what's called for.

I have been accused of being a MCP and I think Cynthia still likes me? This PC stuff is for the birds. Common sense and decency are what's called for.

Yaniger and I are calling for uncommon sense and indecency.

At the very minimum.

And have you noticed that there's really no such thing as common sense? Sense is common only to the person who thinks it is common (i.e., the right way, the only way, to think). No such critter, James.

Woodrow Wyatt, Saintsbury oration, 1954.

I think that part of it makes this deeply ironic. In view of Sainstbury himself, in his classic first major English-language wine introduction for consumers (Notes on a Cellar-Book, still good reading and familiar to all hardcore wine geeks), observing how natural taste sensitivities vary considerably, and anecdotes of women who showed better natural tasting skills than their men, even when the latter claimed to be the wine connoisseurs.

Bob,

My comment was ironic. I tried to indicate that with the "twisted" emoticon. I was making the feeble pun on "male chauvinist pig" and "kosher".

Of course here in 2007 this is an outrageous and unacceptable remark.

Back when it was made, in 1954, women were expected to stay at home, cook meals, look pretty, and produce babies. No intellectual thought on the part of females required. Intellectual thought ridiculed by males if expressed.

What's considered to be acceptable humor varies over time. Back in 1954 anything with even a whiff of sexual innuendo would be considered out of the bounds of good taste, let alone actual four-letter words. But jokes demeaning to women or minorities were perfectly OK. Now we've got the opposite situation--sexual innuendo and four-letter words are OK, but anything dissing women or an ethnic minority provokes outrage.

Having lived through both sets of mores, what I find most amusing is what people choose to get outraged over, and how that has changed over time.

-Paul W.

[James Roscoe]

I have been accused of being a MCP and I think Cynthia still likes me? This PC stuff is for the birds. Common sense and decency are what's called for.

Yaniger and I are calling for uncommon sense and indecency.

At the very minimum.

And have you noticed that there's really no such thing as common sense? Sense is common only to the person who thinks it is common (i.e., the right way, the only way, to think). No such critter, James.

Sure there is Hoke. Would you spit at the table in your favorite restaurant? Would you pick your nose in your favorite wine store? Would you stand up and take a piss in front of your friends at a dinner party? (assuming sobriety) That is common sense. Of course none of this applies to Stuart.

"I think that part of it makes this deeply ironic. In view of Sainstbury himself, in his classic first major English-language wine introduction for consumers (Notes on a Cellar-Book, still good reading and familiar to all hardcore wine geeks), observing how natural taste sensitivities vary considerably, and anecdotes of women who showed better natural tasting skills than their men, even when the latter claimed to be the wine connoisseurs."

Even more irony, Max -- Wyatt was a fairly liberal Labour party member at the time of the address. Later he became a Conservative and very close to Thatcher and through horse racing close to the Queen and the Queen Mother.

His journals of those years have been published, and reviewers write that they are 25% women and wine, 50% offensive often false gossip and the balance politics, with Wyatt asserting that most of Thatcher's policies were in fact his. I considered reading his journals, but the UK bookseller I consulted quoted one reviewer: "One word of warning, Woodrow Wyatt's view of anyone who isn't a white, anglo-saxon, protestant male is at best patronising, at worst offensive."

I might give his daughter's book -- which is very favorable to Wyatt -- a look see but Wyatt himself isn't of much interest.