Definition of pigeage?

Hi,

I am encountering a problem with conflicting definitions of the word "pigeage".

There are contradictory definitions that are driving me crazy...

I have always understood the word to mean ti le "punching down and breaking up the cap" (very common in Burgundy )

However, I am increasingly running across descriptions that involve *submerging* or *plunging* the cap.

What is the most common definition of the word?
In modern winemaking (let us forget the "breaking up with wooden paddles" I find on the Internet for the moment...), does pigeage entail a two-step operation:

- breaking up the cap and *then* plunging/submerging the broken cap using a wire mesh???

Best regards,
Alex R.

AFAIK pigeage is simply punching down. That in itself will submerge bits of the cap for a while, but will not hold the cap down.

A further confusion seems to be that pigeage is sometimes translated as treading, and treading can refer to crushing grapes with the foot, as traditionally done for Port for example.

You need to punch down in open top fermenters otherwise the cap forms in impermeable barrier and you don't get the colour.

So you need to break it up and push it back down under the surface, but of course CO2 from fermenting wine pushes it up again. Here in SA they push down manually every 2-3 hourse 24 hours a day, and back breaking work it is too (I did it once, at Kanonkop for a very short time -- I claimed benefit of age .

So pushing down and breaking up , plunging and submerging are descriptions of what is done.

Sometime during nights some will push down with their feet, and sometimes a smaller worker (usually young trainee winemakers, students from the winemaking college, or trainees on and exchange visit) will bet they can walk across the hard cap. Sometimes during the night they'll take their clothes off and jump in......

Larger wineries using tall tanks have remote controlled plungers to do the task, and with rotary fermenters the entire tank rotates.

There's a picture of pigeage at Kanonkop on my blog here http://www.pinotage.org/2007/04/decade- ... -when.html

Thanks Steve and Peter.

Peter, my problem is for a translation I'm doing in which they imply that the pigeage involves punching down the cap and then using a wire mesh to submerge it.

Perhaps I will work my way around this by speaking of pigeage accompanied by submerging the broken cap...

By the way, is Snorbens estuary-speak for "Saint Albans"?

Best regards,
Alex R.

Yup, St Albans. I remember this town well, was on a retreat there when at school, jumped over the wall at night and went down to the local for a beer and a smoke!!
I rowed in the First VIII so could have been in trouble if caught!!

my problem is for a translation I'm doing in which they imply that the pigeage involves punching down the cap and then using a wire mesh to submerge it.

Alex - can you give me the full French expression/sentence used? Then it will be easier to translate.

It sounds like two processes to me:
Pigeage = Punching down and then submerged cap ... both processes can be used, one after another.

But I would really need to see the French full version to be sure (to be sure ...).

Hi Wink,
(interesting to see so many Englishmen contributing to this thread!)

The text is poorly written in my humble opinion, but I must soldier on.

Here's the sentence:

La vinification de Jean Dupondt et de son équipe est particulièrement soignée avec des vendanges au fur et à mesure des maturités, de tables de tri avant cuvaison, de traitement par gravité et d'extraction par pigeage. Depuis 2004, Château Moulinsard dispose d'un nouveau cuvier de 18 cuves en inox termorégulées d'une capacité de 50 à 120 hl chacune. ***La montée en pression se fait de façon lente, sans rebêchage et avec pigeage pour n'extraire que la partie la plus pure du jus***.

Of course, it doesn't help that I am confused by the meaning of "rebêchage" either...
A Web search shows me that "rebêchage" = "Emiettement du marc pressuré en vue d'un nouveau pressurage" *but* I understood the French sentence to be talking about maceration, i.e. the stage *before* pressing...
Furthermore, I did not think that "rebêchage" was used to make the finest wines, as per the definition of "rebêche" from the same source: "dans la production de Crémant et Champagne, jus issu du dernier pressurage".

I go out to the wine country much less often these days, and I know that "pigeage" is becoming much more widespread than it used to be. However, if as Peter says, you need an open topped fermentation vat to do this, I'll be darned because I have never seen one in all my years in Bordeaux!

As if this were not bad enough, the same text also includes the following sentence:

"Les moûts sont directment mis en barriques par gravité, puis débourbés après passage en chambre froide".

I take this to mean that the wine is put into barrel by gravity flow (i.e. without the use of pumps), put into a cold chamber, and then racked to remove the wine from its fermentation lees.
But why have I never heard of this sort of procedure before for red wines in Bordeaux?

Best regards,
Alex R.

Hello Alex
In this case it is an Englishwoman contributing ... (and I live part of the time in Haute Savoie, France).

Over the years, I have struggled with many poorly written French winemaking or tasting descriptions for translation (including for a couple of years for the Guide Hachette when that was translated into English) and as you say, you must "soldier on" ... but this is indeed a tough one.

I think that the text is written not in process order if you see what I mean, unless they are mixing up descriptions of their winemaking facilities for both white wines (all those new stainless steel tanks) and red wines. Your extra sentence gives the clues
"Les moûts sont directment mis en barriques par gravité, puis débourbés après passage en chambre froide" which is translatable as:
"The must is transferred into barrel directly by gravity, then settled after a period of time in the cold room" ...
The word "débourbés" means 'settled' not 'racked'.

To me this looks like the fermentation of the reds is at least partly in barrel, in which case they could do pigeage (punch down) in open-top barrels. The 'rebêchage' is possibly a red herring and I would take simply to mean they are not stirring up the skins/yeast etc., just simply doing the gentle pigeage ... with a slow fermentation (I think that's what they mean by "La montée en pression se fait de façon lente").

I hope this helps rather than confuses. Good luck! If it were me, I would phone them up to get them to explain ...

Hello Wink,

Sorry for taking you for a bloke..

I couldn't help thinking of that song, "La Dame de Haute-Savoie" when I read your post! .

I have a soft spot for Seyssel, which is half in your department and have a fond memory of visiting the Maison Mollex.
Unfortunately, though, you don't often see very good wines from out your way in these parts...
I quite enjoy serving a Mondeuse blind. No one *ever* guesses what it is!

I am in the translation business, and about two thirds of our activity is for the wine industry.
So, I'm not exactly a novice at this. But when I don't know, I'm not afraid to say so...

By the way, your post is not entirely clear: did you do translations for the Guide Hachette?

This text was written by a Swiss, and I think he may very well have confused a few things.

>>>The word "débourbés" means 'settled' not 'racked'.

I quite agree. But one does not "settle" red wines, does one???
I used the word rack because I extrapolated the wine's throwing off its lees, and then being separated from them.
However, I've admitted that I'm confused by the descriptions they use.

>>>To me this looks like the fermentation of the reds is at least partly in barrel, in which case they could do pigeage (punch down) in open-top barrels. T

Well, this is certainly a new one on me.
Pigeage *in barrel*!
Do they do this in Burgundy?

>>> Le 'rebêchage' is possibly a red herring and I would take simply to mean they are not stirring up the skins/yeast etc.,

It certainly does not seem to fit, does it?

>>>... with a slow fermentation (I think that's what they mean by "La montée en pression se fait de façon lente").

Yes, I understood that the same as you, although it is expressed somewhat curiously.

I will undoubtedly contact the customer, but this translation has made me realize that I need to brush up on my winemaking techniques.
Who in the world practiced "pigeage" in Bordeaux a few years ago?

Best regards,
Alex R.

I have a soft spot for Seyssel, which is half in your department and have a fond memory of visiting the Maison Mollex.
Unfortunately, though, you don't often see very good wines from out your way in these parts...
I quite enjoy serving a Mondeuse blind. No one *ever* guesses what it is!

Mollex used to be quite good, but in view of improving Roussette de Savoie from other producers in Savoie, I'm favouring them less and less - their cuvées are a little too sweet ... Yes, Mondeuse is a good one for guessing games - now we know it's an official relative of Savoie (see a posting of mine in December), it makes it all the more interesting.

I am in the translation business, and about two thirds of our activity is for the wine industry.
So, I'm not exactly a novice at this.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you were a novice - I had looked up your site and realized you were in this business ...

By the way, your post is not entirely clear: did you do translations for the Guide Hachette?

Complicated to answer - I was their consultant for 2 English editions (or was it 3?) ... also being involved in some editing of text from professional translations and also some translations of my own (but I am NOT a professional translator) ... the team was also involved in the nightmare of rescuing the text from a computer translation the last year we did it. None of the results were satisfactory in any way whatsoever, partly because French and English tasting technique and terms are so different, and also they had a miserable budget and a ludicrously short time scale.

>>>The word "débourbés" means 'settled' not 'racked'.

I quite agree. But one does not "settle" red wines, does one???
I used the word rack because I extrapolated the wine's throwing off its lees, and then being separated from them.
However, I've admitted that I'm confused by the descriptions they use.

>>>To me this looks like the fermentation of the reds is at least partly in barrel, in which case they could do pigeage (punch down) in open-top barrels. T

Well, this is certainly a new one on me.
Pigeage *in barrel*!
Do they do this in Burgundy?

The settling is linked - I think - with the fact of partial fermentation in barrel. Pigeage in barrel is becoming quite widespread for small lots from small boutique wineries around the world ... quite artisinal but also quite New World vogueish ... not sure about Burgundy.

Will be interesting to hear whether they are really doing this at your customer's château!

By the way, is Snorbens estuary-speak for "Saint Albans"?

Estuary? Goodness no, that is Essex. Snorbens in in Herfordshire and is the local pronunciation

I had a foreign visitor who came by train from London and he missed a number of trains because I told him that not all trains stopped at St Albans and he should listen to the station announcements -- but he didn't hear the words Saint Albans. Took a while before it clicked.

Peter,

I asked because my wife is from Saint Albans, and we were married there (St. Michael's church).
I was struck by the way people pronounced the name of the town, and when I saw you had put "Snorbens" it tickled me no end!

Best regards,
Alex R.

What a small world

For anyone interested -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Michael's_Church,_St._Albans

Wink Lorch wrote:
It sounds like two processes to me:
Pigeage = Punching down and then submerged cap ... both processes can be used, one after another.

Just to add a side bar to what Steve, Peter and Wink Lorch had posted- this is what red wine cap management is all about, to keep the solids moist and partially submerged to get full extraction. For “small” volumes of must, punching down the cap (pigeage), manually or by mechanically means is feasible. But “larger” volumes of must require alternate means of cap management, such as pumping over (remontage). I’ve seen SS tanks with screens about mid way up the tanks to keep the solids submerged at all times during fermentation, then there is the roto-fermenter which periodically rotates to mix up the fermenting juice and solids, and the newest technology is the process of using a gas to bubble through the cap to keep it moist and partially submerged. Some SS tanks are specifically designed to use the CO2 that it produces during fermentation for this purpose

Alex as far as “settling” wines; all wines have to undergo a settling and clarifying process. Yes for white wine production, generally the juice must go through a “settling” process so that the “clearest” of the juice can be fermented. After fermentation and the yeast has completed its “desired” task the wine has to be once again “settled” and “cleared”.

Salute

Hi Guys,

The long and the short of it is that the text was poorly written with a lot of inaccuracies and there was a confustion between white wine and red wine production....
I have since worked been in touch with the author and worked out what he actually meant to say...

Victorwine,

Thanks for your input.
Where are you, and do you make wine?

Best regards,
Alex R.