WTN: A few Finger Lakes wines with some age

I've been following the wine scene in the Finger Lakes (NY) for many years now and all along trying to get a handle on the aging properties of the better wines. Here are a few notes on a few examples with some age:

2001 Dry Riesling, Hosmer, Cayuga Lake: OK, not that old, but wanted to see how this is doing. The color is still a youthful light bronze with just a hint of gold. There is ripe mango on the nose with a tiny hint of vinyl shower curtain. Lovely in the mouth with a fresh, fruity attack of apples and apricot. Slightly oily and nutty richness too; might be just off dry, but none the worse due to the balancing acids. Alsatian in style; aging gracefully. 12% abv.

1998 Pinot Noir, Dr. Konstantin Frank, Finger Lakes: Had high hopes for this, as it comes from a good growing season and Dr. Frank's Pinots can age well. Unfortunately, heavily corked! Sad, because the color was still saturated and youthful for PN with some stuffing still evident. My last bottle.

1998 Pinnacle, Standing Stone Vineyards, FInger Lakes: For those not familiar with Standing Stone's wines, this is a Bordeaux blend with a high percentage of Cabernet Sauv. (typically 70-75%) and the balance Merlot and Cab Franc. One should generally be wary of CS grown in the FL, but this is often their best red (they have a very warm site). The color is remarkably dark: almost black, with some bright red/brick at the brim (think inverse BBQ for colors). The nose is curranty but showing some poopy/VA notes. Some graphite too. Very bright on the palate with more blackcurrent, prunes and some lighter notes of tar, bell pepper and earth. Nice length and ripe but substantial tannins. Again, some signs of VA. I can't help but feeling the wine has been negatively affected by storage under the synthetic 'supremecorq' closure, which has made many of the Standing Stone whites simply unageable. Not ruined, but one wonders what it could be under a better closure. 13.0 % abv.

Thanks Joe. Too bad about the PN.

I've been following the wine scene in the Finger Lakes (NY) for many years now and all along trying to get a handle on the aging properties of the better wines. Here are a few notes on a few examples with some age:


1998 Pinnacle, Standing Stone Vineyards, FInger Lakes: For those not familiar with Standing Stone's wines, this is a Bordeaux blend with a high percentage of Cabernet Sauv. (typically 70-75%) and the balance Merlot and Cab Franc. One should generally be wary of CS grown in the FL, but this is often their best red (they have a very warm site). The color is remarkably dark: almost black, with some bright red/brick at the brim (think inverse BBQ for colors). The nose is curranty but showing some poopy/VA notes. Some graphite too. Very bright on the palate with more blackcurrent, prunes and some lighter notes of tar, bell pepper and earth. Nice length and ripe but substantial tannins. Again, some signs of VA. I can't help but feeling the wine has been negatively affected by storage under the synthetic 'supremecorq' closure, which has made many of the Standing Stone whites simply unageable. Not ruined, but one wonders what it could be under a better closure. 13.0 % abv.

I tried a few of the Pinnacle's in the mid 1990's Not sure vintages but I would guess 1995 and 1997 from wines I remember bringing back for the FL. I remember liking one but not the other and felt that other red's held more promise.

The only FL wine that I have had that showed benefits from aging was a 1995 Shalestone (I believe) Cabernet Sauvignon. I opened it at about 10 years of age and it had picked up some nice secondaries. The 1997 though was just old.

I have a 1998 Gewurz and Riesling in the celler from Keuka Overlook that I fear are dead. Both are under synthetic cork. Will try to pull them soon and report.

I've been following the wine scene in the Finger Lakes (NY) for many years now and all along trying to get a handle on the aging properties of the better wines. Here are a few notes on a few examples with some age:


1998 Pinnacle, Standing Stone Vineyards, FInger Lakes: For those not familiar with Standing Stone's wines, this is a Bordeaux blend with a high percentage of Cabernet Sauv. (typically 70-75%) and the balance Merlot and Cab Franc. One should generally be wary of CS grown in the FL, but this is often their best red (they have a very warm site). The color is remarkably dark: almost black, with some bright red/brick at the brim (think inverse BBQ for colors). The nose is curranty but showing some poopy/VA notes. Some graphite too. Very bright on the palate with more blackcurrent, prunes and some lighter notes of tar, bell pepper and earth. Nice length and ripe but substantial tannins. Again, some signs of VA. I can't help but feeling the wine has been negatively affected by storage under the synthetic 'supremecorq' closure, which has made many of the Standing Stone whites simply unageable. Not ruined, but one wonders what it could be under a better closure. 13.0 % abv.

I tried a few of the Pinnacle's in the mid 1990's Not sure vintages but I would guess 1995 and 1997 from wines I remember bringing back for the FL. I remember liking one but not the other and felt that other red's held more promise.

The only FL wine that I have had that showed benefits from aging was a 1995 Shalestone (I believe) Cabernet Sauvignon. I opened it at about 10 years of age and it had picked up some nice secondaries. The 1997 though was just old.

I have a 1998 Gewurz and Riesling in the celler from Keuka Overlook that I fear are dead. Both are under synthetic cork. Will try to pull them soon and report.

Brian,

I'd love to hear about the Keuka Overlook wines. Those people bought my winemaking equipment when I shut down my place...and they used to love my Gewurztraminer.

As for Pinnacle: I recently had the 2006 for evaluation--it's now 90% Cabernet Sauvignon. It's ok, but I am unconvinced about that grape in this region, especially with less help from a blend. In this case, the wine gave me a childhood memory of playing in a pile of decaying autumn leaves, and the fruit was overpowered by a harsh sensation of acidity that the owner says is not from high acidity in the wine.

I tried a few of the Pinnacle's in the mid 1990's Not sure vintages but I would guess 1995 and 1997 from wines I remember bringing back for the FL. I remember liking one but not the other and felt that other red's held more promise.

The only FL wine that I have had that showed benefits from aging was a 1995 Shalestone (I believe) Cabernet Sauvignon. I opened it at about 10 years of age and it had picked up some nice secondaries. The 1997 though was just old.

I have a 1998 Gewurz and Riesling in the celler from Keuka Overlook that I fear are dead. Both are under synthetic cork. Will try to pull them soon and report.

I'm guessing that it was the '97 that you liked. Mind you at that point Standing Stone wasn't very old, the first vintages being in the early '90s. Oddly enough, I think that some of the FL whites age better than the reds, which tend to be all over the place anyway. Things aren't helped by many producers hopping on the synthetic cork bandwagon early. Marti at Standing Stone used to swear by the 'Supremecorq' (all one piece plastic), which I found to be awful: certainly worse than the other style that seems to have a smooth cylinder filled with a foamier type of plastic (more prevalent now). I'd like to see more screwcaps used there.

Keuka Overlook is a peculiar little place which sometimes produces some really nice wines (esp. the Gewurz).

Brian,

I'd love to hear about the Keuka Overlook wines. Those people bought my winemaking equipment when I shut down my place...and they used to love my Gewurztraminer.

As for Pinnacle: I recently had the 2006 for evaluation--it's now 90% Cabernet Sauvignon. It's ok, but I am unconvinced about that grape in this region, especially with less help from a blend. In this case, the wine gave me a childhood memory of playing in a pile of decaying autumn leaves, and the fruit was overpowered by a harsh sensation of acidity that the owner says is not from high acidity in the wine.

Thomas,
I suspect that 2006 may not be the best vintage for Pinnacle, especially if it is 90% CS. Wonder if they had to cut back on the percentage of Merlot following all the frost damage in '04-'05? Standing Stone is odd in that they don't grow any Cab Franc, but buy it in (when I was around it was mostly from Sawmill Creek). But I agree that CS should probably not play a major role in the region, although some from the east side of Seneca have been quite decent (e.g. Damiani did an impressive '05, Ch. Lafayette Reneau can be good if they don't ruin it with nasty oak...). Since you are up in the region, have you had a chance to taste much from the '07 vintage? I'm looking forward to trying some of those wines.

Joe,
I developed an interest in Finger Lakes wines in the mid 70's after a short visit up there. I had access to various vinifera and hybrid wines through the 80's when I was active giving tastings, teaching and consulting with several restaurants because of ties to all the major vendors (ie: distributors), but was generally disappointed with the reception these wines got. The one big exception was Doctor Frank's Reisling, that seemed to please everybody who tried it. I bought several vintages by the case, including a case of the legendary 1965 Spatlese, and found them to be very ageworthy. The only other Finger Lakes wines that seemed to hold in my cellar (blasted out of ledge, and a bit cool) were some of Walter Taylor's red varietals from Bully Hill. I drank a Baco Noir at about age ten that was actually quite lovely, for a hybrid grape wine. I found, however, that even very promising Chardonnays, Gewurtz and other Reislings from other wineries just wouldn't last more than a few years. I brought back 3 bottles of 1969 Vinifera Cellars Pinot Noir from that trip in '74, and opened the last bottle at about age 15. It DID taste like a very old Burgundy, and wasn't corked or damaged it any way. Even smelled like poop when I opened it!
I suggest you keep looking, as New York wines are on the upswing again. I suspect, by the way, that the Dry Reislings being made by Dr. Frank's son might improve with a year of two of age, but when I find one or two here, I tend to buy them and serve them soon with good New England fish.

Joe,

I haven't tasted any 2007 yet.

I think the Pinnacle 90% CS was a decision they made for now and into the future. I believe the 10% is CF, not Merlot, but I could be misremembering that.

Bill,

Things in the Finger Lakes are not even close to what they were in the 70s or even in the 90s. A lot has transpired, one of which is that Dr. Frank's son died two years ago and the winery is now operated by the doc's grandson. In any event, neither the son nor the grandson ever made or make the wine; that's done by hired winemakers--4 of them right now, each working on their specific wine strengths. The place has tripled or more, as has the wine industry here since the 70s.

As for FL wine aging: I've found that the subject all too often is blanketed when it's usually best to view it as a winery or wine specific issue. A few years ago I opened ten to fifteen year-old FL Rieslings that were absolutely marvelous representations of aged Riesling. Of course, I produced them in the 80s and wanted to see how they were doing in 00s... Sadly, they are all gone now.

Last year, a friend who had a remaining bottle of my 1991 Gewurztraminer decided to open it one evening. It was astoundingly alive and well after 16 years.

Bill,

Welcome. As Thomas points out, there has been many changes and a lot of growth since you were around the FL. You should try to make a visit if you can, because I think you would be surprised at the difference. The wines from Dr. Frank continue to age well, but there are many others which are worth laying down, especially riesling. The Hosmer I posted on above is a good example of a wine which has matured nicely since release (note: this vineyard is on Cayuga Lake, which didn't even figure in the wine scene back in the '70s). Apropos another recent riesling thread, I didn't even need to mention the word petrol in the TN!

Thomas,

It would have been interesting to taste your older wines. Did you grow your own grapes or bring them in? I'm not a big fan of aging gewurztraminer but I did attend a vertical of Standing Stone gewurz hosted at the winery when I worked there (harvest and crush in 2000). We had every vintage from the start, 1991 (IIRC) to 1999 and they were all hanging together, with some showing interesting development. I think they generally do a great job with this grape (maybe better than their riesling, the style of which seems to jump around); too bad the wines went under the nasty Supremecorq around 1998... Hope they have gone to better closures (a 2002 PN had a genuine cork).

Gentlemen,
Thanks for the update on the Finger Lakes. For some reason, those wines don't make it to New Hampshire, and I don't have all the contacts I had twenty or thirty years ago in Southern New England. I'm getting to be an old fart who just buys what's in the supermarket or the State Wine Outlet stores. I used to come home from Boston with the back of my station wagon loaded with wine, but in 1980 we got some changes through the Legislature to allow wine sales in grocery stores, AND to force the State to open up wine mart stores around the state. As a result, there is more variety than I can ever hope to try, and it takes something like this current interest in the rapid improvement of cold hardy grapes to get me out and about looking for wineries again. Maybe I'll find the energy to get to upstate NY again, but I haven't been to Washington, New Zealand and South Africa yet, either! Ah well, so much wine, so little time.
Bought and loved several bottles of old vine Spanish Garnacha, grown at about 3,000 feet, and sold here for only $11.00. If you see any, it's worth trying. Very different from and more complex than the best old vine, 100% Grenache Cotes du Rhone, which you can sometimes find at 2 or 3 times that price. I wonder if anybody in California would have the guts to crop back some old vine Grenache, thin the canopy to bake it a bit, and then cool ferment. But Californians are so damn by the book these days.

Bill,

Welcome. As Thomas points out, there has been many changes and a lot of growth since you were around the FL. You should try to make a visit if you can, because I think you would be surprised at the difference. The wines from Dr. Frank continue to age well, but there are many others which are worth laying down, especially riesling. The Hosmer I posted on above is a good example of a wine which has matured nicely since release (note: this vineyard is on Cayuga Lake, which didn't even figure in the wine scene back in the '70s). Apropos another recent riesling thread, I didn't even need to mention the word petrol in the TN!

Thomas,

It would have been interesting to taste your older wines. Did you grow your own grapes or bring them in? I'm not a big fan of aging gewurztraminer but I did attend a vertical of Standing Stone gewurz hosted at the winery when I worked there (harvest and crush in 2000). We had every vintage from the start, 1991 (IIRC) to 1999 and they were all hanging together, with some showing interesting development. I think they generally do a great job with this grape (maybe better than their riesling, the style of which seems to jump around); too bad the wines went under the nasty Supremecorq around 1998... Hope they have gone to better closures (a 2002 PN had a genuine cork).

Joe,

I grew some grapes but not the ones that I used to make wine. I bought an existing French Hybrid and Native vineyard--sold those grapes to other wineries.

The first two years I bought Riesling grapes from Willy Frank's brother-in-law, until my 1987 R won Best New York and Willy refused to allow them to sell to me anymore!

After that, Riesling and Chardonnay came from a combination Keuka and Seneca Lake vineyards while Gewurztraminer came from Seneca Lake only. I remember when the owners of Standing Stone were getting started--we talked a lot about the potential for Gewurztraminer in the region. I suppose they went out on a limb and believed what I said about the variety

Because Gewurztraminer at its flavor peak is low in acid, high in pH, it's best to try for 13% plus alcohol, to give it mouth feel and greater aging potential.

Nice to see Joe and Thomas still around and providing terrific insights into Finger Lakes wines..How are you guys?
Some years back,before my wife and I took our first wine tasting tour around Seneca Lake, Joe was kinda enough to email me a very detailed drinking man's guide to Seneca which became my bible/road map for Seneca

I have never been a fan of Standing Stone's wines but that may be because I have never tasted them under optimal conditions..whenever I have visited the winery,they were pouring outdoors..Not surprisingly the wines tasted cooked to me,especially the reds..the whites were served chilled..Kinda tough on reds wines standing around on 80+ degree days, mid summer, to be at their best..
Am also not a big fan of Supremecorq..One of my favorite Cal Pinot producers used them for a while and then went over to screwcaps..Fortunately I have now gone through all of his wines that were sealed with the evil S..at least half of them did not hold up well.

Had the pleasure of tasting at Damiani last summer, new discovery for me..I think he did some very nice nice things with his reds..My favorite was his 2005 Cab Franc

Nice to see Joe and Thomas still around and providing terrific insights into Finger Lakes wines..How are you guys?
Some years back,before my wife and I took our first wine tasting tour around Seneca Lake, Joe was kinda enough to email me a very detailed drinking man's guide to Seneca which became my bible/road map for Seneca

I have never been a fan of Standing Stone's wines but that may be because I have never tasted them under optimal conditions..whenever I have visited the winery,they were pouring outdoors..Not surprisingly the wines tasted cooked to me,especially the reds..the whites were served chilled..Kinda tough on reds wines standing around on 80+ degree days, mid summer, to be at their best..
Am also not a big fan of Supremecorq..One of my favorite Cal Pinot producers used them for a while and then went over to screwcaps..Fortunately I have now gone through all of his wines that were sealed with the evil S..at least half of them did not hold up well.

Had the pleasure of tasting at Damiani last summer, new discovery for me..I think he did some very nice nice things with his reds..My favorite was his 2005 Cab Franc

Hello Jon,

Say hello to Dana Decker, for me.

Do you know if that Damiani C Franc was Finger Lakes or Long Island fruit?

Will do, Dana's store is not far from where we live...He's my go to guy for eclectic and tasty wines I can't find elsewhere

Just came back from the cellar..the Damiani Cab Franc says Finger Lakes on the label..no back label info..
John Z's winery, Silver Springs, just down the road from Damiani, says NY State on the lable of his Cab Franc and those grapes come from Mattituck, Long Island

Not conversant with NY labelling laws but my guess wd be that the grapes come from Finger Lakes.

Will do, Dana's store is not far from where we live...He's my go to guy for eclectic and tasty wines I can't find elsewhere

Just came back from the cellar..the Damiani Cab Franc says Finger Lakes on the label..no back label info..
John Z's winery, Silver Springs, just down the road from Damiani, says NY State on the lable of his Cab Franc and those grapes come from Mattituck, Long Island

Not conversant with NY labelling laws but my guess wd be that the grapes come from Finger Lakes.

Jon,

Yes, I know you are close to Dana's store. You once checked out my credentials by asking Dana about me. I used to sell him wine as far back as when he worked at Liquor Square and also when he had a restaurant.

It's not a NY law--it's federal: if the label states Finger Lakes then the bulk of the volume must be from the Finger Lakes. If the label states New York, that's likely grapes from more than one region in the state.

Thinking that the Damiani winery is related to Pindar on Long Island (owned by Doctor Damiani) I wondered about the grape pedigree. I'll have to get over there and do some tasting.

Hi Jon, nice to see you around too. I haven't been posting that much but try to read when I get a chance.

Thomas: The Pindar founder is Dr. Damianos; the Damiani guy is a FL local. Grapes are from the Finger Lakes and mostly their own, IIRC. They seem to feel that the vineyards are very important and are proud to be growers too. Presumably, they are even growing some Sauv. Blanc, but there was none available when I visited.

Hi Jon, nice to see you around too. I haven't been posting that much but try to read when I get a chance.

Thomas: The Pindar founder is Dr. Damianos; the Damiani guy is a FL local. Grapes are from the Finger Lakes and mostly their own, IIRC. They seem to feel that the vineyards are very important and are proud to be growers too. Presumably, they are even growing some Sauv. Blanc, but there was none available when I visited.

Thanks, Joe. I got the names screwed up. Of course, one is plural and one is singular

I have a Ravines Sauv Blanc in my cellar. Planning to open it soon--will let you know.

Thanks, Joe. I got the names screwed up. Of course, one is plural and one is singular

I have a Ravines Sauv Blanc in my cellar. Planning to open it soon--will let you know.

Ravines does a Sauv. Blanc? That is news to me. The only other one I've had from the FL was made by New Land under the original owners (back in the '90s) and was pretty nice. They said it was a challenge to grow...

Thanks, Joe. I got the names screwed up. Of course, one is plural and one is singular

I have a Ravines Sauv Blanc in my cellar. Planning to open it soon--will let you know.

Ravines does a Sauv. Blanc? That is news to me. The only other one I've had from the FL was made by New Land under the original owners (back in the '90s) and was pretty nice. They said it was a challenge to grow...

I believe it is the first SB for Ravines. The winemaker believes that the Finger Lakes climate is no harsher than Bordeaux when it comes to growing so-called Bordeaux varieties. I'm not sure I agree, but he worked in Bordeaux--I've only visited...

Yes, I remember Nancy Newland's SB. It was a reasonable wine, but somewhere along the way, she had to let it go.

Hi Joe..I just returned to the board..
Dr Damianos is a Long Island Cardiologist, probably retired by now, I haven't seen him in years..I was a big fan of his Mythology Red..
When we were at Damiani, the tasting sheet said they were sold out of the Sauv Blanc but Mr D was kind enough to taste me on some and sell me some,, quite nice..Popped a bottle of their chard the other night..Tasted much better the second night, not sure what to make of how it tasted the first night..just not quite "there", tasted better at the winery..It was singing ,however, on night 2..

[Robin Garr]

Hi Joe..I just returned to the board..

Welcome back, Jon. Mighty glad you found your way down the trail of bread crumbs!

Thx, Robin..I find bread crumbs quite helpful when I get lost in the forest, also go well,if cheese flavored, with a crisp Tocai Fruliano..but that's another story..Wil be heading out to SF and Sonoma,perhaps Napa as well, in the Fall so iwill be checking in on the restaurant threads as well..Nice to see I have been promoted to cellar rat..

Brian,

I'd love to hear about the Keuka Overlook wines.

Took me a while to get around to opening these up and I only had the heart to open two. I did not have what I thought in the cellar. I had the 97 Blue Lake Chard and the 98 Reserve Chard. Both as feared were dead. A nice bronze color and tasted sherry like. Shame as the acidity was still there. I am blaming the synthetic cork.

I still have a 98 Gewurtz that I am sure is also dead but will wait to confirm that for a later day.

Brian,

I'd love to hear about the Keuka Overlook wines.

Took me a while to get around to opening these up and I only had the heart to open two. I did not have what I thought in the cellar. I had the 97 Blue Lake Chard and the 98 Reserve Chard. Both as feared were dead. A nice bronze color and tasted sherry like. Shame as the acidity was still there. I am blaming the synthetic cork.

I still have a 98 Gewurtz that I am sure is also dead but will wait to confirm that for a later day.

That's too bad. Ten years shouldn't do that much damage to the wine, provided the cork is good and the wine was stable.

I forgot to mention that I opened the Ravines Sauvignon Blanc (in case Joe is reading). The wine is a good first effort: clean, not heavy on the general nose of that variety, on the light side but with nice fruit. I think the winery is selling a different vintage of it now.