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WTN: Loire

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Bill Spohn

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WTN: Loire

by Bill Spohn » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:02 am

Notes from a very interesting Loire tasting (mostly done blind) matched with Japanese cuisine.

1993 Dom. du Closel Savennieres Cuvee Speciale – light straw colour, very waxy nose, smooth but still has acidic bite, excellent length. I once tried this when it was only about 5 years old and it was like a newly bottled Cloudy Bay sauv blanc, able to etch the enamel on your teeth. These wines realy do need 7-10 years to mellow.

2002 Damien Laureau Savennieres Les Genets – new age Savennieres. Darker, with a rich honeyed nose with some botrytis, then surprisingly light on palate, delicate even, finishing with a hint of oxidation and a fair bit of acidity. Not sure I like these higher alcohol early drinking versions as much as the traditional style.

1995 Champelou Vouvray – musty nose at first but that blew off, medium body, pleasant soft wine, nothing special.

1998 Dom. du Closel Savenierres Les Caillardieres – this one was apparently strong enough to induce temporary memory loss in the person that brought it, as he scrambled to recall what was in his bag. It has more colour than the Vouvray, and a stony nose devoid of the usual wax, and a molasses or brown sugar note that strangely was not out of place in this very dry wine. Tasty, balanced and with good flavour concentration and length.

1996 Huet Vouvray Sec Le Mont – lighter colour than the Closel and a delightful floral mineral nose that later added a waxiness and complexity. Rich on palate, smooth and long. My favourite to that point.

1995 Foreau Vouvray Clod Naudin Moelleux – an interesting petrol Riesling sort of nose, excellent balance on palate and it only showed as off dry despite a 12% RS – that’s what enough offsetting acidity can do. Very good.

1970 Moulin Touchais – it was nice that someone brought this stand-by Anjou (it is a Coteau du Layon) that is sold like Ch. Gillette – the current vintage is usually at least a decade old. I’ve had the 49, 64, and 71, but I don’t think I’d tasted the 1970 before. Dark amber in colour, slightly hot butterscotch nose, lots of RS but tons of acid as well and it worked out to a very decent balance. It made me think of seared foie gras….

1995 Olga Raffaut Les Picasses Chinon – on into the cab francs! I don’t recall drinking any wine made by anyone named Olga before – it conjured up visions of tractors and sturdiness I though best to put out of mind. The rim of this wine was getting pale and showing its age, and the nose was oddly Burgundian in a good stinky sort of way, with a marked green note. It later transformed into a primarily cherry nose! No more than decent fruit, drying tannins at the end and a tad hollow in the middle.

2000 Baudry La Croix Boisee Chinon – a young, sappy floral fruit nose, with a slight hint of mint, smooth and obviously youthful on palate. The tannin was fairly soft.

2002 Couly-Dutheil Clos de l’Echo Chinon – we tasted this when we first got to the restaurant and then a couple of hours later when we drank it. Intense sweet nose, medium weight, and aggressive, slightly green, hard tannins. After a couple of hours the nose had changed to one of cigar smoke (in a good way), but the wine was still tighter than a.….well never mind, let’ just say it was not giving much. A wine to be revisited in a decade or so.

Morals – whites are better than reds in the Loire. Whites age beautifully. Loire whites mate with Japanese cuisine passably well (easy on the wasabi). Fascinating tasting.
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Re: WTN: Loire

by Bob Parsons Alberta » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:35 am

Bill thinks.....Loire whites mate with Japanese cuisine passably well (easy on the wasabi).

Always a learning experience when you post Bill. Thanks, will have to try in the future.
Tim York is a big Baudry fan and I have been stocking up on the `04.
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Re: WTN: Loire

by David M. Bueker » Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:06 pm

Interesting notes. I am intrigued by the '93 Closel note, as I had a '97 Closel Savennieres over the weekend. It smelled like fermented garbage and tasted worse (and yes most of the geeks tasted it). I've had very good luck with aging Savennieres in my cellar, but I tend to see a lot of cooked/compromised stuff around.
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Re: WTN: Loire

by Bill Spohn » Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:22 pm

David M. Bueker wrote:Interesting notes. I am intrigued by the '93 Closel note, as I had a '97 Closel Savennieres over the weekend. It smelled like fermented garbage and tasted worse (and yes most of the geeks tasted it). I've had very good luck with aging Savennieres in my cellar, but I tend to see a lot of cooked/compromised stuff around.



These wines should make old bones. In fact they NEED to have age to allow the acidity to abate so that they are enjoyable. That notwithstanding, I have also observed some 'duds'. One that comes to mind is the 1993 Closel Papillon, which seemed to be breaking up a few years ago. I must haul a bottle out and try it but I don't hold much hope that it will somehow have reformed itself.

I'd agree with your asesessment that the problems you noted were probably due to some harsh treatment somewhere in the history of that bottle. A shame! Nice to hear others are trying these wines, but we better keep it under our hats or the price will escalate... :wink:
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Re: WTN: Loire

by Tim York » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:59 pm

Bill Spohn wrote:Morals – whites are better than reds in the Loire. Whites age beautifully. Loire whites mate with Japanese cuisine passably well (easy on the wasabi). Fascinating tasting.


I can't disagree with this statement. Nevertheless I contend that Loire reds can be very fine, if not amongst the world's greats like some of the Chenin derived whites. For example, I would expect Baudry"s Croix Boissée 00 to be very fine in two year or so, if it lives up to its theoretical superiority over Les Granges about which I wrote enthusiastically yesterday. 15-20 year old Joguet Chinon from a good vintage is very elegant as I found at a vertical, Saumur-Champigny from the Foucault brothers can be similar with a bit more body and the 89 Saumur-Champigny from the little known René-Noël Legrand is ethereal.

Foreau and Huet are great. Alas I have never had Moulin Touchais and your note makes me regret that all the more.
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Re: WTN: Loire

by Felix Warners » Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:55 pm

David M. Bueker wrote:Interesting notes. I am intrigued by the '93 Closel note, as I had a '97 Closel Savennieres over the weekend. It smelled like fermented garbage and tasted worse (and yes most of the geeks tasted it). I've had very good luck with aging Savennieres in my cellar, but I tend to see a lot of cooked/compromised stuff around.


The older wines I bought from this chateau 2-3years ago have all been terrible. Dark brown in colour and totally over the hill. I think it was 1995Jalousie and the 1993 Vielles Vignes. The recent vintages I have opened needed more cellar time but I was afraid that those would go the same way as these older bottles I bought. Your notes give me hope and the bottles I bought from the domaine were probably badly stored at the domaine.
Last edited by Felix Warners on Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WTN: Loire

by Rahsaan » Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:54 pm

Bill Spohn wrote:2002 Damien Laureau Savennieres Les Genets – new age Savennieres. Darker, with a rich honeyed nose with some botrytis, then surprisingly light on palate, delicate even, finishing with a hint of oxidation and a fair bit of acidity. Not sure I like these higher alcohol early drinking versions as much as the traditional style.


Interesting. Thanks for the note. Is Laureau still working in this style?
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Re: WTN: Loire

by Clint Hall » Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:50 pm

Loire Chenins and Chinons: I love 'em! Glad to hear the old Closels didn't let you down, Bill, but I'm not sure I would hang onto Closel's more recent releases that long, the ones that were made by their current winemaker. I'm not alone in questioning their future in the cellar -- but I generally have liked them during their first few years.
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Re: WTN: Loire

by David M. Bueker » Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:03 pm

Welcome Felix! I'm really not sure how the '97 Closel was treated, so keep an eye on your bottles. I know I am going to be checking in frequently.
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Re: WTN: Loire

by John S » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:52 pm

Bill Spohn wrote:These wines should make old bones. In fact they NEED to have age to allow the acidity to abate so that they are enjoyable. That notwithstanding, I have also observed some 'duds'. One that comes to mind is the 1993 Closel Papillon, which seemed to be breaking up a few years ago. I must haul a bottle out and try it but I don't hold much hope that it will somehow have reformed itself.

Agree about the need for age. The frustrating things about Loire chenins is that sometimes they do become 'reformed', as you say Bill. Sometimes I'll open a savenierres that is an oxidized mess, and then after being open a day or two - or a few years down the road - it will start coming out of that stage. Kind of like Northern Rhone whites. Very frustrating, but facinating.

That's not to say you don't get a few over the hill wines as well...

I'm a huge fan of these wines, and had a great time at the tasting. All the white were intriging, and no duds at all thankfully! The reds really couldn't even come close to matching the whites on this occasion, despite the quality of the producers/wines, although the food and younger age could have had something to do with it.

The Foreau was my WOTN - an outstanding wine I thought - followed closely by the Huet, Moulin Touchais, and the two Closels (esp the 1993). Thanks to Rasoul for organizing yet another great offline. I always think of aged dry chenins from the Loire as being intellectually stimulating wines - the antithesis of 'hedonistic' wines - and last night's tasting confirmed that.
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Re: WTN: Loire

by Bill Spohn » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:25 pm

Yeah, those whites rocked, didn't they John?

It was a lot of fun!
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Re: WTN: Loire

by Felix Warners » Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:34 am

David M. Bueker wrote:Welcome Felix! I'm really not sure how the '97 Closel was treated, so keep an eye on your bottles. I know I am going to be checking in frequently.


Thanks David. It is a bit offtopic but regarding the Savennières. I am a big fan of these wines especially when they are older. A few months ago I had a big tasting with Nicolas Joly and we had a brilliant line up. I asked him if he thought the fact that the wines have now 14-15%alcohol will make these wines more approacheble young since they are so ripe but less good to cellar. He said it made no difference and that he thought these wines would be perfect still in 20years. The Coulee de Serrant 1989, 1990 and 1996 of Joly are such magnificient wines I hope his recent vintages will be like that also in a few years but I have my doubts. A bottle of his Savenniere The "Clos de la Bergerie" 2004 I had 2 tweeks ago was at opening a brilliant wine, complex, ripe etc. After one night in the fridge the remaining of this wine has changed in colour from golden yellow to almost dark brownish and had lost all his freshness.
Joly, Closel, Laroche and a few more estates in the Savennières made wines last year that go to 15% in alcohol. Baumard is one of the few that still manages to keep the alcohol "low". For me the young Baumard wines I had brought less "thunder" than the wines from Joly and Closel but the older Baumards I drank were like a dream. I'm a bit worried and have started opening bottles of recent vintages from all the winemakers that produced Savennières with 14-15% alcohol because I think this ripe style wont improve to much with age, although I hope im terribly wrong. I havent had any 2006 and wont buy any since all my money is spend on german Riesling but I'm curious if this ripe trend will procede or that was due to warm vintages like 2003 and 2005.
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Re: WTN: Loire

by Rahsaan » Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:09 am

Felix Warners wrote:Joly, Closel, Laroche and a few more estates in the Savennières made wines last year that go to 15% in alcohol...I'm curious if this ripe trend will procede or that was due to warm vintages like 2003 and 2005.


Laroche as well? Interesting, their wines used to be so acidic.

I'm not sure it is just the warm vintages. As you mentioned, it is a trend that is spreading across winemakers and across vintages and seems to be a conscious decision, from what I can tell.
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Re: WTN: Loire

by Rahsaan » Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:10 am

Bill Spohn wrote:1995 Foreau Vouvray Clod Naudin Moelleux..a 12% RS..


I'm not familiar with this notation, I usually see it quoted in grams per liter. What does 12% RS mean?
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Re: WTN: Loire

by Bill Spohn » Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:21 am

Rahsaan wrote:
Bill Spohn wrote:1995 Foreau Vouvray Clod Naudin Moelleux..a 12% RS..


I'm not familiar with this notation, I usually see it quoted in grams per liter. What does 12% RS mean?


The European Union now uses exclusively g/l as a measurement. In the old days in the US, for example, it was common to use %.

FYI, 100 g/l = 10% (as 1 litre of water is 1 kilo) So 12% is the same as 120 g/l or the same level required for a 5 Put Tokay, just to give you some idea.
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Re: WTN: Loire

by Rahsaan » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:44 am

Bill Spohn wrote:FYI, 100 g/l = 10% (as 1 litre of water is 1 kilo) So 12% is the same as 120 g/l or the same level required for a 5 Put Tokay, just to give you some idea.


Thanks that does make sense and gives even more perspective to your comment about the balancing acidity!
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Re: WTN: Loire

by John S » Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:31 pm

Felix Warners wrote:A few months ago I had a big tasting with Nicolas Joly and we had a brilliant line up. I asked him if he thought the fact that the wines have now 14-15%alcohol will make these wines more approacheble young since they are so ripe but less good to cellar. He said it made no difference and that he thought these wines would be perfect still in 20years. The Coulee de Serrant 1989, 1990 and 1996 of Joly are such magnificient wines I hope his recent vintages will be like that also in a few years but I have my doubts. A bottle of his Savenniere The "Clos de la Bergerie" 2004 I had 2 tweeks ago was at opening a brilliant wine, complex, ripe etc. After one night in the fridge the remaining of this wine has changed in colour from golden yellow to almost dark brownish and had lost all his freshness.
Joly, Closel, Laroche and a few more estates in the Savennières made wines last year that go to 15% in alcohol. Baumard is one of the few that still manages to keep the alcohol "low". For me the young Baumard wines I had brought less "thunder" than the wines from Joly and Closel but the older Baumards I drank were like a dream. I'm a bit worried and have started opening bottles of recent vintages from all the winemakers that produced Savennières with 14-15% alcohol because I think this ripe style wont improve to much with age, although I hope im terribly wrong. I havent had any 2006 and wont buy any since all my money is spend on german Riesling but I'm curious if this ripe trend will procede or that was due to warm vintages like 2003 and 2005.


I'm a bit worried about this trend to higher alcohol Loires as well, and unsure whether it's part of the global trend to later harvesting/riper/higher alcohol wines, or the global warming trend (probably a bit of both, I reckon). As you say, 14.5 to 15% is now normal for many savenierres, and who knows how this will affect aging. I guess we'll just have to wait and see... Interesting to hear Joly's take on it, although what else is he going to say?!? He's guessing as much as the rest of us, as the proof won't be known for 20 years!

Thanks also for the data point on the Joly Bergerie 2004, as I just bought a bottle a few weeks ago. I'm a bit nervous it fell apart so quickly...

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