Wall St. Journal article on wine pricing in US restaurants

Hi guys,

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB ... 54_leftbox

Is it any wonder that so many wine lovers are dispirited by the price of wine in restaurants?

I'm afraid the rationale behind the mark-ups does not really convince me.

At all.

Best regards,
Alex R.

And what is the comparable situation in Bordeaux, Alex?

Both in Bordelais wines and in "imported" wines?

[Robin Garr]

Note that this is a Wall Street Journal article written for a WSJ demographic. While some of its points are quite valid - three-times wholesale equals double retail as the "standard" industry markup is valid, as is the discussion of declining markups with higher-price wines. The idea of memorizing a few key benchmark retail prices (or iPhoning Wine-Searcher, which I actually have saved as an icon on mine ) are excellent advice.

But all that said, note that a good part of the article is about poseur wines at overpriced places-to-see-and-be-seen eateries. It would be interesting to see (and maybe some day I'll take this on), a similar, deeper analysis of wine lists at real restaurants where real people eat.

Hi guys,

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB ... 54_leftbox

Is it any wonder that so many wine lovers are dispirited by the price of wine in restaurants?

I'm afraid the rationale behind the mark-ups does not really convince me.

At all.

Best regards,
Alex R.

But all that said, note that a good part of the article is about poseur wines at overpriced places-to-see-and-be-seen eateries. It would be interesting to see (and maybe some day I'll take this on), a similar, deeper analysis of wine lists at real restaurants where real people eat.

I've generally considered myself a real person, and have eaten at Legal Seafood, Landmarc (many times), and Ruth's Chris. I've never eaten at Per Se, but know many real people who have.

[Robin Garr]

I've generally considered myself a real person, and have eaten at Legal Seafood, Landmarc (many times), and Ruth's Chris. I've never eaten at Per Se, but know many real people who have.

Okay, so I was being a little provocative. By and large, though, they did seem to be talking about primarily high-end wines and high-end places.

Hoke,

The situation in France is a little more complex.

With regard to appellation wine, the mark-up would be roughly similar, with the most expensive wines also being less marked up.

Restaurants are known for serving wines, even famous ones, very young, and frequently from poorer vintages.

However, there is often decent house wine, and that is usually quite inexpensive.

Also, there are restaurants where you can bring your own. And those I know do not charge corkage.

Foreign wines are uncommon.

Wine service is spotty. Once - in Pauillac - I asked a waitress to decant a Pichon Longueville an Australian friend had ordered, and she looked as shocked as if I had asked her to take all her clothes off! She didn't even know what I meant, and the restaurant didn't have a decanter. In Pauillac!

In short, the diner is held pretty much as much hostage in France as in America if he chooses to buy a good bottle.

Best regards,
Alex R.

I've generally considered myself a real person...

Harumph!! You're really Audrey Retadore!

(sorry, folks, very inside joke)
Mark Lipton

Thanks, Alex.

That pretty much jibes with my experiences in France.

The two most major variances between US and France, of course are

1. There's more imported wine....and that's primarily because relatively few areas in the US have a profoundly developed local wine production culture, but secondarily because America has always been enamored of imports.

2. Very few...sadly...restaurants have enough inteliigence to offer good house wines. Most of them default to swill; some better ones put simple and featureless wines that are cheap; very, very few feature house wines that are worth drinking, and that are actually interesting. That's always puzzled me, but there it is.

The major twist in the US is the by-the-glass revolution of the last twenty years. True, the btg markups are the highest (or tend to be) and the rule of thumb of selling price of glass=restaurant cost of bottle is pretty standard, but at least the btg allows a significantly greater variety of choices and styles, and the cost to pay, per item, is significantly less than plunking down for a full bottle. Plus, most diners don't drink a half bottle at dinner, so the incidence of full bottle orders is less than in Europe.

I'd also agree with Robin that this is basically a NY thing, possibly extending out to the major metro areas around the country. Not necessarily anywhere else.

Oh, and except for the truly stratospheric places (the ones you and I rarely go to, in other words), it's not only France where they feature young wines and weaker vintages...happens a lot here as well. Very few restaurants age their own wines or maintain extensive cellar programs; most have JIT inventories. And if they buy the great vintages on the open market, we couldn't afford them anyway. (Or we'd be too damned cheap to shell out the money. )

But all that said, note that a good part of the article is about poseur wines at overpriced places-to-see-and-be-seen eateries. It would be interesting to see (and maybe some day I'll take this on), a similar, deeper analysis of wine lists at real restaurants where real people eat.

To be honest I rarely eat out and then it is generally at this local place that has a wonderfully priced wine list that I have noted before as an example that not all places charge outrageous prices for wine. There are almost always some items on the list at or even below retail. Most recent on line version is from Jan but can be found here http://thecrossingatcaseyjones.com/files/file/TheCrossing_WineList.pdf

However, we have eaten at many of the see-and-be-seen places and while the wine prices are not the bargin that my local place has I can generally find a good wine at a decent value if I am willing to search and ask the Sommelier. In fact at most of those places talking with the Somm seems to get one a lot. We have had numerous glasses of wine provided gratis by the somm and have been invited to visit the cellar and talk wine at more places than I can easily recall. At one of the See-and-Be-Seen places in DC the Somm took us in the cellar after dinner and was showing us around when he said "And the California Cabernets are over there. They don't go with anything on the menu but we sure do sell a lot of them." Obviously the Cal Cabs he was refering to were name wines and the worst value offerings on the list. My point is that I think that many of the places that do care about food and wine make an effort to offer something to the true wine lover - not the label drinker. Generally in the way of the hidden bargain but also in the other perks that I mentioned we have been provided for nothing more than showing an honest interest. Somms love wine and they love sharing it with those who appreciate it.

Note that this is a Wall Street Journal article written for a WSJ demographic. While some of its points are quite valid - three-times wholesale equals double retail as the "standard" industry markup is valid, as is the discussion of declining markups with higher-price wines.

I have to chime in on this one, why as consumers do we accept this price gouging? I do not find restaurant markups valid, I find them insulting. Though my pocketbook is not as deep as the diners who frequent these places I do know what wine costs from the vineyard to the table and find that method of pricing outrageous!
Next gripe...so do we have to tip 20% on a wine that has double to three times the mark-up?

thanks for letting me vent!

Michael

[Robin Garr]

I have to chime in on this one, why as consumers do we accept this price gouging? I do not find restaurant markups valid, I find them insulting. Though my pocketbook is not as deep as the diners who frequent these places I do know what wine costs from the vineyard to the table and find that method of pricing outrageous!
Next gripe...so do we have to tip 20% on a wine that has double to three times the mark-up?

thanks for letting me vent!

Well vented, Michael! Frankly, I know a lot of people who don't buy wine in restaurants for just this reason. Perhaps because I'm quite close to the local restaurant business while wearing another of my hats, I'm a little more forgiving. A restaurant after all is a business, and for many, it's a business of long, hard work and very low margins. "Buy low, sell high" is a necessary rule of capitalism, and personally, when I dine out, I'm willing to pay standard markups because I understand it's a part of the machinery that makes the system work.

That said, I love it when I find a restaurant that offers exceptionally low wine markups and I seek to reward those restaurants with my business. On the other side of the coin, I'll generally resist mendacious markups well above the local standard, and drink beer, water or iced tea rather than pay that.

Tipping is another matter. I don't love the US system, but I know I can't change it. To under-tip is not to change the system or even to punish the people who keep it in place. It only penalizes the poor schlub who works his or her butt off to serve my dinner, and who's paid an exceptionally low wage because it's understood that his income depends on charity. (And, in the US, is even TAXED on the basis of anticipated receipts.)

Like most people I know who are involved in the restaurant business in any way, I tip well above the 20 percent standard, and I regret that expenditure much less than I regret overpaying for poor or carelessly made or industrial food.

Wine service is spotty. Once - in Pauillac - I asked a waitress to decant a Pichon Longueville an Australian friend had ordered, and she looked as shocked as if I had asked her to take all her clothes off! She didn't even know what I meant, and the restaurant didn't have a decanter. In Pauillac!

Alex,
A possibly silly question, but what verb did you use (assuming that you were conversing in French)? My understanding is that, in your situation, carafer would be appropriate, whereas decanter would apply to aged wine. I realize that the distinction is likely not as clear as I make it sound. Just curious...

Mark Lipton

Mark,

Interesting point.

Both words are used in French. However, I have a sneaking suspicion that "décanteur" is indeed verging on an anglicism (not that it doesn't exist in French - I'd compare it to the virtual replacement of "difficulté" by "problème" - closer to the English), more used by wine lovers than the average person.

I'd make a clear distinction between the noun and the verb, the latter being far more widespread and easily understood.

The object, a decanter, or "décanteur" is, you are right, much more commonly called a "carafe".
The problem is that the latter word most often designates a simpler, cheaper version of a decanter. For instance, tap water or house wine in restaurants would be served in a carafe, and never in a decanter.

I see your point. Not everybody would understand the request to begin with.

But we're talking about a restaurant in Pauillac, and a very expensive wine!

If memory serves me right, I will have asked "Vous pouvez nous le décanter, s'il vous plaît ?".

And that's where the incomprehension settled in.
However, faced with the waitress' incredulity, I immediately explained (she had no idea that this was frequently done for fine wine), and that is when it came out that the restaurant didn't have any decanters even if they had wanted to, or known how to decant the wine...

Best regards,
Alex R.