When does Foch ripen in the Midwest?

Hello Folks,

I don't suppose any of the wine makers (professional or home) might suggest when Marechal Foch ought to be fully ripened in, say, southern Indiana?

Thanks,
Ryan

it is an early ripener; so down there i would think by the end of august. but you could call ted huber and ask - though he is probably knee deep in harvesting one thing or another by now. his wife sometimes answers the phone and she might know.

Thanks! I have only two vines in the yard, and as you might know, apparently birds love early ripening grapes like Foch, so I want to get them off the vines as soon as possible. I've tasted a few - they are starting to develop noticable sweetness and good flavor.

I don't know about the midwest, but it's usually the 3rd week in September for the Niagara region. In the past I could get Foch at 24 Brix around September 21st. However, the grower I was buying them from tore them out due to a crown gall infestation about 4 years ago.

However, the grower I was buying them from tore them out due to a crown gall infestation about 4 years ago.

Double A?

Double A?

Double A is a nursery that supplies vines. I've bought vines from them. The Vignoles and Chambourcin 1 year olds are doing fine after a couple of years. However, I did not have much luck with the Traminette or working with cuttings of Vidal and Leon Millot. My grower, Bruce Giles, had been growing the Foch since the early '70s, so I don't know where he obtained his vines. Here's an article about him in the local newspaper about his invention for installing netting, complete with a video: LINK.

Double A?

Double A is a nursery that supplies vines. I've bought vines from them. The Vignoles and Chambourcin 1 year olds are doing fine after a couple of years. However, I did not have much luck with the Traminette or working with cuttings of Vidal and Leon Millot. My grower, Bruce Giles, had been growing the Foch since the early '70s, so I don't know where he obtained his vines. Here's an article about him in the local newspaper about his invention for installing netting, complete with a video: LINK.

Good luck with the Double A vines. I have been told by many in the business that they have had crown gall problems in the past. Unsure if it impacted all vines are just certain ones.

you might as well buy some netting. can't cost much for that small a 'plot'.

you might as well buy some netting. can't cost much for that small a 'plot'.

Already in the works, and thanks for the suggestion.

Well, I tasted a grape every few days until I was happy with the level of sugar and the ripeness of flavor, and just for good measure, waited until at least a few had started to shrivel. So, I picked the grapes last night, destemmed by hand picking only the ripe berries, crushed them al la potato masher, added the yeast, and as of this morning fermentation is under way. Now we wait . . . .

What was the sugar level? Did you test for acidity?

What was the sugar level? Did you test for acidity?

Hello Howie. Didn't do formal tests of anything. Perhaps I should have, but the batch is small enough (maybe a quart of juice) that I guess I'm just content to see what happens and learn from it. But, I would describe the flavor of the berries I tried as balanced and attractive.

Ryan, a good instrument to have (one that's indispensable IMO should you start making wine on a regular basis) is a hydrometer: it will tell you specific gravity and potential alcohol of your wine. Sometimes, the sugar level may seem OK, but if the grapes are low acid, that might be a bit deceptive.

Of course with Foch, both acidity and sugar should be well within acceptable parameters.

Do let us know how it turns out!

Well, I realized in retrospect that I used at least 8 times more yeast than was necesary, and so primary fermentation finished within 72 hours of the grapes being crushed and the yeast added. I debated if I should let it sit on the skins, but decided that, since I was content with the color, without the presence of CO2 and the cap, the wine might be exposed to too much oxygen, so I pressed it off the skins and put it in a secondary fermentation vessel with an airlock. After getting the 'free run' wine and that from a not so gentle pressing, I put some of the must in a coffee filter and literally squeezed it by hand into a glass. So here is an 'advanced' (very) note:

Villa St. Michael (by Ryan Maderak), Marechal Foch, Briarcliff Plot, Indiana 2008 (preliminary tasting)
A sample taken after completion of primary fermentation. Bright ruby color. Nose hard to evaluate, but basically sharp cherry in character. On the palate, increadibly tart but light cherry, raspberry, and tantelizingly light hints of blackberry. As acidic/tart as it could be without being offensive, but the fruits, while rather light, are actually reasonably pleasant. Should be fairly decent if the acidity mellows. I'll guess it will last about 2 - 3 years. No Rating.

Hopefully there's no legal reason I can't use such a name for my 'winery' (and if there's someone out there who objects, let me know). So the question is, will the acidity mellow, and if not what can I do to bring it into balance? I've considered going down to the wine/beer making supply shop and getting (gasp) some oak powder. Anyway, there should be enought wine for me to easily bottle two half bottles, and possible a split as well. I'm not planning on filtering or fining the wine, and unless anybody advises strongly otherwise, I don't intend to use any other additives.

So the question is, will the acidity mellow, and if not what can I do to bring it into balance?

Ryan,

Tough to say just going on abstract info (i.e. not having tasted the wine), but I would suggest you try cold-stabilizing it to get some of the tartrates to fall out of suspension: that would likely bring the "palate feel" more into focus.

Here in southern Ontario, they usually pick Foch mid-September or so. I would say that as with any old-line red hybrid, crop control mid-season (doing a green harvest) is key to quality. Do you know how heavily the vine(s) was/were cropping? Keeping the amount of fruit each vine produces down, and planting more vines (so as to have enough fruit to make wine) would be my preferred tactic for "building balance" in the vineyard.

Thanks for the notes!

Tough to say just going on abstract info (i.e. not having tasted the wine), but I would suggest you try cold-stabilizing it to get some of the tartrates to fall out of suspension: that would likely bring the "palate feel" more into focus.

Thanks for the suggestion Paul - will do! I'm going to give it a week to finish 'secondary fermentation,' but then I'll rack it and stick it in the fridge. What do you think about using some oak in this case?

What do you think about using some oak in this case?

If the wine tastes light, oak it only lightly: you don't want a light red wine (i.e. a wine with a light frame, if you will) to taste too strongly of oak. If it were an inky, dense Foch, I would say oak it a bit more. I think Foch takes well to oak, but only when it has some "meat" on the proverbial vinous bones ...

What do you think about using some oak in this case?

If the wine tastes light, oak it only lightly: you don't want a light red wine (i.e. a wine with a light frame, if you will) to taste too strongly of oak. If it were an inky, dense Foch, I would say oak it a bit more. I think Foch takes well to oak, but only when it has some "meat" on the proverbial vinous bones ...

I was definitely planning on going light with the oak. So let me ask you a very specific question: If I use oak powder, how much would you recommend for approximately 925 mL of wine? In body, I'd say its comperable to but slightly less than a basic Beajolais (i.e., not a Villages). What I want is just a little extra tannin and the lightest touch of vanilla.

So let me ask you a very specific question: If I use oak powder, how much would you recommend for approximately 925 mL of wine? In body, I'd say its comperable to but slightly less than a basic Beajolais (i.e., not a Villages). What I want is just a little extra tannin and the lightest touch of vanilla.

Ryan,

I'm not sure that this is the answer you want to hear, but I would personally avoid the use of "powder" if it's that dusty stuff. I used oak "chips" that were not of powdery consistency, but rather somewhere between "chips proper" (if you will) and pencil shavings. I am afraid that rather than getting a nice touch of oaky vanilla from "powder", you will end up getting some harsh tannins that might detract from your wine. Maybe we're just stuck on semantics here, but my advice would be to go for the chips or shavings if at all possible.

And, as it was my first year oaking my wines, I didn't measure the amount of shavings I used last year: it amounted, very approximately, to about two heaping tablespoons' worth per 11-litre carboy. And the oak flavour was certainly adequate after a couple of months in that.

I'm not sure that this is the answer you want to hear, but I would personally avoid the use of "powder" if it's that dusty stuff. I used oak "chips" that were not of powdery consistency, but rather somewhere between "chips proper" (if you will) and pencil shavings. I am afraid that rather than getting a nice touch of oaky vanilla from "powder", you will end up getting some harsh tannins that might detract from your wine. Maybe we're just stuck on semantics here, but my advice would be to go for the chips or shavings if at all possible.

I was refering to the 'dusty stuff,' but the shop might have the shavings as well. Duly noted and will try to find shavings, or else will pass on oak. Thanks!

Well, the wine has been cold stabalizing in the fridge, and I've taken a few sips - as of last night, it has finally settled down into something I would describe as quite pleasant. And the color is very nice. Will not be adding oak, as the fruit is too light to handle it. It's still on the acidic side, but in a food-friendly sort of way. Think I'm going to bottle it this weekend, then wait six months or so to try one. So it won't quite be Nouveau. All and all, after tasting it last night, I am very pleased, and consider it quite succesful. Thanks to everyone for the input!

Ryan,

Thanks for posting back with your first TN. I think you'll find making wine to be an extremely wholesome, enjoyable hobby that really connects one with the land and what it can produce for our sustenance. I know that making my annual batches of wine is a labour of love. Best of continued luck with your vinous endeavours!

Ryan, good luck eh.

Research conducted by World Cooperage a few years back, concluded that using oak powder during fermentation removed vegetal aromas (sulfur related compounds) in red wines. They’re not talking merely masking the vegetal aromas with oak aromas. Just adding a low dosage of oak powder (below sensory threshold) was shown to reduce “green” “vegetable”, “swampy”, and other sulfur related aromas. Somehow because of the pulverized state of the oak powder the sulfur compounds bound or linked up with a constituent of the oak powder. Since oak powder is fairly easy to remove from the wine a significant amount of the sulfur related compounds are also removed.

Ryan, now that you got your “feet wet” (or should I say “hands purple”), you might get “hooked”! Good Luck with your batch of Foch,

Salute