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Priorat gone down hill?

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Priorat gone down hill?

by BMcKenney » Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:23 am

I have noticed that Grenache blends from Rhone taste quite different than a Priorat. Often enough that I wanted to mention this to someone who knows wine better than I. To put it very succinctly, Rhone Grenache blends are always fruity, and a Priorat Grenache blends are vegetative. I've noticed this often enough and I thought it was the terroir. In the Rhone valley the terroir makes it fruity and the in Priorat the terroir makes it taste vegetative. So I posed this theory to someone and wondered what the response would be. Would he concur? Would he come back with something totally different? He said that Priorat used to be non-vegetative and fruity but at some point in the past they started blending in Cab, which gives it that vegetative taste. And in his mind, Priorat isn't what it used to be. I don't have the history or experience or authority he does, but I will say I know what I like and I do prefer a Grenache blend from the Rhone and all of the limited Priorats (like three of them....) have been highly vegetative. I'd be curious to hear other peoples thoughts on the blending of Cab in to their Grenache. Does this ring true? Is it a wide spread thing across most of the wines of the region? Is there a good Priorat that doesn't blend in Cab?

Bryan
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Re: Priorat gone down hill?

by David M. Bueker » Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:00 am

Paging Victor de la Serna...Paging Victor de la Serna...please come to the red wine phone.

While I am not a fan of the modern style of Priorat I don't see your vegetative comment (rather I find them too fruity - candied much of the time). Also there is no way to blanket the region with a particular term or a "they blend in Cab" comment. There's still quite a bit of diversity (both in Priorat and elsewhere).
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Re: Priorat gone down hill?

by Bob Parsons Alberta » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:38 am

Seems to be some mis-conceptions here. Although I am not a big fan of Priorat, I have never come across vegetative signs and would have struggled to find a cab influence. Even if it is there!
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Re: Priorat gone down hill?

by BMcKenney » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:42 am

Bob Parsons Alberta. wrote:Seems to be some mis-conceptions here. Although I am not a big fan of Priorat, I have never come across vegetative signs and would have struggled to find a cab influence. Even if it is there!


I don't know the taste profile of cab as I don't drink it, but he said that the vegetables come from cab - that cab tastes very vegetative. I wish I had a resource that describes the taste of each grape varietal so I could see if this was generally accepted thinking.

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Re: Priorat gone down hill?

by Bob Parsons Alberta » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:47 am

OK, I checked some notes here from some examples sampled downtown last year The wine was a Clos Mogador, bought in by a flight attendant(!) so maybe not available in our area. Main thought of mine was how long to cellar? I think that is continually a question regarding Priorat.
My other brief notes mention tannic, baked, black cherry, licorice and tobacco. No cab influence there I`d say!!
Here are some dated thoughts from Jamie Goode....>

http://www.wineanorak.com/priorat.htm
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Re: Priorat gone down hill?

by BMcKenney » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:53 am

David M. Bueker wrote:Paging Victor de la Serna...Paging Victor de la Serna...please come to the red wine phone.

While I am not a fan of the modern style of Priorat I don't see your vegetative comment (rather I find them too fruity - candied much of the time). Also there is no way to blanket the region with a particular term or a "they blend in Cab" comment. There's still quite a bit of diversity (both in Priorat and elsewhere).


That's interesting. So there is a modern style of Priorat, but you find that its too fruity and there isn't a big vegetative component. Tell me, is Cab known to have a big vegetable taste?

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Re: Priorat gone down hill?

by David M. Bueker » Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:39 am

BMcKenney wrote:
David M. Bueker wrote:Tell me, is Cab known to have a big vegetable taste?


If it's not ripe yes, but I have a hard time believing that you can't ripen Cab in Priorat. Heck you can get it to ripen in Bordeaux.
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Re: Priorat gone down hill?

by Daniel Rogov » Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:47 pm

Won't get into the discussion as generalizations tend to be dangerous, but you will find some of my Priorat tasting notes (1998-2003 vintages) at http://www.stratsplace.com/cgi-bin/sear ... =&UserID=4

I have more notes of course but those not yet on my data base

Best
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Victor de la Serna

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Re: Priorat gone down hill?

by Victor de la Serna » Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:57 pm

There is no "modern" Priorat, in the sense that quality dry reds were not produced there until the 'gang of five' new producers began modestly their road to fame with their commune-like vinification of the 1989 vintage: René Barbier, Álvaro Palacios, Josep-Lluís Pérez, Carles Pastrana and Daphne Glorian (who would each become famous for producing Clos Mogador, L'Ermita and Finca Dofí, Clos Martinet, Clos de l'Obac and Clos Erasmus). Before that, some rustic dry reds were made by Scala Dei, Masía Barril and some co-ops, but it was the fortified 'rancio' reds that had made the region's fame since the Middle Ages.

It's true that there were concerns about the ageability of non-fortified wines made from the region's two traditional grape varieties, garnacha tinta/grenache and cariñena/carignan. Pérez, who was the scientist in the group (he taught viticulture and oenology at Tarragona University), advised them to plant plots of cabernet sauvignon, merlot and syrah. The idea was to blend small percentages of these French varieties, which all give greater tannic structure than the two native ones, into the wines to give them longer aging and drinking windows, and possibly some extra aromatic complexity.

What has happened in the almost 20 years since then is that producers have become much more familiar with grenache and carignane and have acquired growing confidence in them, so that the percentage of the native grapes in the blends has grown constantly and there are now some leading wines in the 'new generation', such as Trio Infernal 2/3 (made by Laurent Combier, Jean-Michel Gérin and Peter Fischer), which are 100% carignane. Of the three French grape varieties, merlot was not very successful from the start (too hot for it), cabernet sauvignon seldom played more than a minor, supporting role, and syrah was, as could be expected, the most successful one in blending with grenache and carignane and in adapting to the terroir.

The diminishing role of cab is quite obvious. For instance, in the 1998 Mogador it was 40% of the blend, but by 2005 it was down to 28%. For Erasmus, it's now down to 10%, and the cab will eventually be phased out.

Now on this 'vegetative' note, I really don't know this wine descriptor. Do you mean 'vegetal'? In a scorching-hot region with very poor hillside soils made of deep masses of brown schist, overripeness is a more realistic concern and problem than greenness. I personally have found very few cases of greenness in these wines. Minerality is a more frequent characteristic, as is the case of so many schist-based wines - but that could not be confused with vegetal notes. Massive concentration, overripeness and high alcohol are more common problems. IMHO, the truly great Priorat wines avoid those pitfalls - but then, the truly great Priorat wines are made by just seven or eight out of the 90 wineries that have sprouted up in the last 20 years.

Comparisons with the southern Rhône are mostly meaningless. There, the wines are made at sea level on flat soils mostly covered by large 'graves' rocks (which help the ripening process in a rather cooler region than Priorat). Also, the Aragonese-Catalan strains of grenache are quite different from the French strains in that their content in anthocyanins (i.e., dark color) is considerably higher. These are vastly different animals - like a Coonawarra shiraz and a Côte Rôtie syrah.
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Re: Priorat gone down hill?

by Bob Parsons Alberta » Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:43 pm

Wow..2 great posts. Victor as usual sums up so neatly whilst Daniel has provided us with some excellent TNs. 3-ring binder coming out!
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Re: Priorat gone down hill?

by BMcKenney » Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:03 am

Thanks for the great post, Victor. Lot's of interesting information, but none that I was expecting to read as none of it validates what I said. But it's great to be better informed. As for vegetative or vegetal, I'm not sure which word is better for stating that something tastes like vegetables. And I don't know that I agree that comparing Grenache in Priorat to Rhone is 'meaningless'. For one thing, the terroir is different and it's interesting to experience how different region produce different tasting wines based on the same varietals.

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Re: Priorat gone down hill?

by Victor de la Serna » Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:20 pm

It's 'meaningless' in the sense that comparing Côte-Rôtie to Coonawarra shiraz is 'meaningless' - no one spends much time doing these kinds of exercises.

OTOH, if you have a Priorat with vegetal notes, or any other Spanish red wine with vegetal notes (Spain = warm terroirs, ripe grapes), the answer is rather obvious: you have a less-than-acceptable example of Priorat (or Spanish) red wine.

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