The place for all things wine, focused on serious wine discussions.

WTN /Wine Advisor: What's a négociant and why should we care

Moderators: Jenise, Robin Garr, David M. Bueker

no avatar
User

Robin Garr

Rank

Forum Janitor

Posts

21880

Joined

Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:44 pm

Location

Louisville, KY

WTN /Wine Advisor: What's a négociant and why should we care

by Robin Garr » Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:44 pm

What's a négociant and why should we care?

Today let's review a fairly common French wine term that's not always widely understood and that can provide useful information in the quest for wine value.

What does a négociant negotiate? These French merchants (and their international counterparts) purchase grapes, juice or bulk wine from small farmers, which they then produce, bottle and market on a larger scale under the négociant's label.

Some firms, particularly older and traditional businesses, will use the double-barreled term négociant-éleveur ("Neh-go-see-ahn Eh-leh-vuhr"), a couple of words that don't translate very well ("shipper-improver" might be a fair shot at it). In theory, a négociant simply buys, bottles and sells wine from outside sources, while an éleveur "improves" the wine by making it from grapes or freshly crushed juice. I've found, though, that the distinction is fuzzy in practice, and the terms are pretty much synonymous.

Assuming savvy shopping, the result to the consumer can be wine of good value, if for no other reason than that négociant wines are generally more lightly regarded than the "estate-bottled" and "single-vineyard" wines made on the premises by producers who grow their own grapes.

If you're willing to trade off the cachet (and the price) of estate-bottled wines and don't insist on top-rank style for everyday drinking, you'll find that négociant wines - particularly those from companies you've learned to trust - can offer a good, characteristic taste of a region and its grapes, without the expense of the more sought-after estate-bottled wines.

Today's featured wine is a fine example. Browsing my neighborhood wine shop the other day, I spotted a modestly priced wine from Moillard, an estimable Burgundy producer from Nuits-St.-Georges. "Whoa," I emoted, startling a shopper in the next row. "A $10 Burgundy!"

Well, not quite. As it turns out, Moillard is both a producer and a négociant. In this instance, the $10 wine was a fresh, young Côtes du Rhône, "bottled and shipped" by Moillard according to the English-language back label: A Burgundy producer assembling and exporting red Rhône wine with its négociant hat on.

The Moillard Website, inscrutably describing the entire sprawling Côtes (hillsides) of the Northern and Southern Rhône as a "diversified vineyard [that] stretches from Vienne to Avignon," makes no claim to source the wines from any particular sub-region. It indicates that the wine may contain, in undisclosed proportions, the traditional Rhône blend of Grenache, Cinsault, Syrah, Carignan and Mourvèdre.

In short, it's a standard négociant wine for sure, making no claim to being anything more special than a representative wine of its region. That said, Moillard makes fine Burgundies. And to my tasting, it makes a mighty tasty cheap Rhône.

In recessionary times when many of us are looking for affordable wines of value and character, reliable négociants are important names to know.

Tell us about your favorites! I hope you'll log in to this topic in our WineLovers Discussion Groups, and add your comments and questions. You'll need to register with your real name, but it's easy and free, and then you'll be able to join in our online conversations.

Moillard 2006 "Les Violettes" Côtes du Rhône ($10.99)

Clear, dark ruby with reddish-violet glints. Plums and berries, just a whiff of sulfur blows off quickly. Fresh and ripe, tart black-raspberry fruit with zippy acidity to make it a winner at the dinner table. Not overly complex, but it's a nicely balanced food wine, with solid but not overwhelming alcohol at 13.5%. A very good value in the $10 range. U.S. importer: USA Wine Imports Inc., NYC. (Aug. 19, 2008)

FOOD MATCH: It calls for red meat or grilled meat or poultry. It was particularly fine with burgers made with fresh local lamb with Middle Eastern spices, topped with dabs of Capriole Indiana goat cheese with basil.

VALUE: In today's economy, an excellent value for $10; better still if you can find it discounted for less.

WHEN TO DRINK: Historically, simple Côtes du Rhône has been considered a drink-me-now wine to be quaffed carelessly with bistro fare. With modern wine making, however, most good examples, even in the low-price range, can last for several years.

WEB LINK:
Moillard's Website is available in French and English. Choose the French Tricolor or the hybrid British/American flag icon for the language of your choice:
http://www.moillard.com
Here's an Adobe Acrobat (PDF) file offering basic information in English about the "Les Violettes" Rhône:
http://www.moillard.fr/gb/fiches%20tech ... lettes.pdf

FIND THIS WINE ONLINE:
Find vendors and compare prices for Moillard 2006 "Les Violettes" Côtes du Rhône on Wine-Searcher.com:
http://www.wine-searcher.com/find/Moill ... g_site=WLP

no avatar
User

Michael Pronay

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

319

Joined

Mon May 01, 2006 12:47 pm

Location

Vienna, Austria

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: What's a négociant and why should we care

by Michael Pronay » Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:51 pm

Robin Garr wrote:Some firms, particularly older and traditional businesses, will use the double-barreled term négociant-éleveur ("Neh-go-see-ahn Eh-leh-vuhr"), a couple of words that don't translate very well ("shipper-improver" might be a fair shot at it). In theory, a négociant simply buys, bottles and sells wine from outside sources, while an éleveur "improves" the wine by making it from grapes or freshly crushed juice. I've found, though, that the distinction is fuzzy in practice, and the terms are pretty much synonymous.

Robin, just my 2¢ to the term "élevage"/"éleveur". It seems to me that in French — as in German, bzw — the term seems to address a phase of wine-making that has no special term in the English language, but does not address an "improvement" per se.

An "élève" is a pupil, an "éleveur" is someone who "brings up", who "trains" the wine. "Élevage" encompasses every activity between fermentation on one hand and bottling on the other. An old-fashioned German term for the same activity is "Schulung", i.e. "training" or "instruction". A common usage for "élevage" would be "élevé en barriques neuves" which would translate to "kept in new barrels".
Ceterum censeo corticem esse delendam
no avatar
User

Robin Garr

Rank

Forum Janitor

Posts

21880

Joined

Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:44 pm

Location

Louisville, KY

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: What's a négociant and why should we care

by Robin Garr » Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:53 pm

Michael Pronay wrote:Robin, just my 2¢ to the term "élevage"/"éleveur". It seems to me that in French — as in German, bzw — the term seems to address a phase of wine-making that has no special term in the English language, but does not address an "improvement" per se.

An "élève" is a pupil, an "éleveur" is someone who "brings up", who "trains" the wine. "Élevage" encompasses every activity between fermentation on one hand and bottling on the other. An old-fashioned German term for the same activity is "Schulung", i.e. "training" or "instruction". A common usage for "élevage" would be "élevé en barriques neuves" which would translate to "kept in new barrels".

Thanks, Michael. As we both said, there's no exact equivalent. I'll stick with "improves" as an approximation in my short-form article, though.
no avatar
User

Michael Pronay

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

319

Joined

Mon May 01, 2006 12:47 pm

Location

Vienna, Austria

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: What's a négociant and why should we care

by Michael Pronay » Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:11 pm

Robin, no problem whatsoever.

Btw, I just realized that David Schildknecht uses the term "élevage" in his writing even without quotation marks, so it seems to be quite common even in English (at least with wine geeks :D ).
Ceterum censeo corticem esse delendam
no avatar
User

Tim York

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

4972

Joined

Tue May 09, 2006 2:48 pm

Location

near Lisieux, France

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: What's a négociant and why should we care

by Tim York » Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:40 pm

Robin Garr wrote:Thanks, Michael. As we both said, there's no exact equivalent. I'll stick with "improves" as an approximation in my short-form article, though.


Robin, I dislike "improve" as a translation for "élever". For me it smacks of manipulative intervention and alchemy which goes beyond the simple acts of barrel or tank ageing, racking, fining, filtering and bottling. Indeed some négociants buy in grapes and perform wine-making tasks as well as "élevage". That said I can offer no good one word English translation (nor for "négociant" for which I think that "shipper" is inadequate). "Rear", "raise" or "breed" are appropriate translations where children and animals are concerned but do not sound right in English for wine.

I go along with Michael is suggesting that we follow David Schildknecht's practice of using the French word in italics or between quotes after an explanation such as you give in your post.
Tim York
no avatar
User

AlexR

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

806

Joined

Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:28 am

Location

Bordeaux

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: What's a négociant and why should we care

by AlexR » Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:22 am

I agree with Tim.
My take is that the verb "élever" is not at all tough to translate. That would be "to age" or possibly "age and bottle".
However, the noun is indeed trickier. To me the English equivalent of "Jean Dupont, négociant-éleveur à Beaune" is "Aged and bottled by Jean Dupon in Beaune".

I'd also add that "éleveur" is on of those tricky words that, to my mind, means next to nothing, like "vieilles vignes" or "vieilli en fût de chêne".
There is no way to prove any of these three expression, and no law governing their usage as far as I know.

The more difficult word to me is "négociant".
The time-honored translation is "shipper," but Tim doesn't like this, and I can see why. It's a bit old-fashioned and doesn't really explain what the company does.
But then, neither does "négociant" in French. "Négocier" as a transitive verb means to buy, to bargain for. Well, a traditional shipper does a lot more than just that. He's a middleman, but is also invovled in the production process, albeit the less important part.

In the translations I do, I tend to put "shipper", but vary as I go along, replacing this word with "négociant" and "merchant" in the same text, even though "merchant" also dissatifies me. It, too, is an old-fashioned term and makes me think either of small, old retail shops or long-ago wheelers and dealers or the Shakespeare play!
For goodness sakes, could anyone call Gallo a "merchant"?

You sometimes see the word "negotiant" in California, but I find this very precious, as I do many of the French names used for estates there (the worst example being a certain "Château Boswell - yuk!).

As for the quality of négociant wines, I worked for French négociants for 10 years in Bordeaux and the Loire Valley, so my point of view can hardly be impartial.
My feeling as that there are tremendous variations and that it is just impossible to generalize!
Some of France's most prestigous producers are also négociants (Bouchard, Guigal, Moueix, etc.) and their wines are frequently better than those from small estates.
However, as we all know, there are also more industrial-type (in the bad sense of the word) négociants who will sell boring or even poor wines as long as they are entitled to the appellation. A bit like cooperative wines, they rarely reach the summits, but produce are a lot of dependable good value products - not excluding occasional flashes of genius!

Best regards,
Alex R.
no avatar
User

Tim York

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

4972

Joined

Tue May 09, 2006 2:48 pm

Location

near Lisieux, France

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: What's a négociant and why should we care

by Tim York » Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:14 am

AlexR wrote:The more difficult word to me is "négociant".
The time-honored translation is "shipper," but Tim doesn't like this, and I can see why. It's a bit old-fashioned and doesn't really explain what the company does.
But then, neither does "négociant" in French. "Négocier" as a transitive verb means to buy, to bargain for. Well, a traditional shipper does a lot more than just that. He's a middleman, but is also invovled in the production process, albeit the less important part.


The advantage of the word "shipper" is that it has been in use as a translation for "négociant" in the wine trade for a long time and therefore the initiated know what it describes even though the word itself is a rotten translation. I don't agree that "négociant" is such a bad word to describe his activities excluding "élevage"; it means trader and that is the core activity although many, even most, do get into "élevage". Like "shipper" in English, most initiated people understand that in wine the term often covers "élevage" even without the addition of "éleveur", which makes the situation clear.

Pity the uninitiated, though.

Apologies to others about this pedantic debate.

PS I agree with your comments on the quality of négociant wine.
Last edited by Tim York on Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tim York
no avatar
User

Robin Garr

Rank

Forum Janitor

Posts

21880

Joined

Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:44 pm

Location

Louisville, KY

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: What's a négociant and why should we care

by Robin Garr » Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:22 am

Tim York wrote:I go along with Michael is suggesting that we follow David Schildknecht's practice of using the French word in italics or between quotes after an explanation such as you give in your post.

Advice appreciated, Tim, but bear in mind that what you're reading here is a cross-posted copy of The 30 Second Wine Advisor, my Email newsletter that goes out to about 50,000 folks, mostly English-speaking and, in many cases, fairly low on the wine learning curve. For these purposes, I simply can't use a French word, even one that's familiar to advanced wine geeks like most WLDGers, without a quick definition. On that basis, I'm more satisfied with "improved" than any other one-word solution that's been suggested. I don't think most newbies are going to think of manipulation, reverse osmosis or spinning cones when they read it.
no avatar
User

Dan Smothergill

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

731

Joined

Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:24 pm

Location

Syracuse, NY

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: What's a négociant and why should we care

by Dan Smothergill » Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:58 am

Assuming savvy shopping, the result to the consumer can be wine of good value, if for no other reason than that négociant wines are generally more lightly regarded than the "estate-bottled" and "single-vineyard" wines made on the premises by producers who grow their own grapes


Here's another, non-linguistics, question Robin has raised: What are some good value négociant wines folks have found?
no avatar
User

Tim York

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

4972

Joined

Tue May 09, 2006 2:48 pm

Location

near Lisieux, France

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: What's a négociant and why should we care

by Tim York » Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:16 pm

Dan Smothergill wrote:[

Here's another, non-linguistics, question Robin has raised: What are some good value négociant wines folks have found?


Let me forget linguistics and kick off with the following -

Burgundy -

Louis Jadot
Chanson Père & Fils
Joseph Drouhin

whose best wines are often from the "domaine"

Dominique Laurent (controversial oak treatment)
Camille Giroud (under previous owners)


Rhône

Guigal
Chapoutier
Jaboulet
Delas

whose best wines are often from the "domaine"

Tardieu-Laurent (controversial oak treatment)


Alsace

Trimbach
Hugel

Also best from domaine

ADDENDUM: I forgot to to mention the Burgundies of Bouchard Père & Fils and its Chablis subsidiary William Fèvre. Again the best wines of often from their own estate. Duboeuf in Beaujolais is also worth a mention for an overall decent standard though he has many detractors.
Last edited by Tim York on Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tim York
no avatar
User

Dan Smothergill

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

731

Joined

Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:24 pm

Location

Syracuse, NY

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: What's a négociant and why should we care

by Dan Smothergill » Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:20 pm

Thanks Tim. I visited Trimbach in Ribeauvillé a few years ago and thought it was an estate winery.
no avatar
User

Dale Williams

Rank

Compassionate Connoisseur

Posts

11871

Joined

Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:32 pm

Location

Dobbs Ferry, NY (NYC metro)

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: What's a négociant and why should we care

by Dale Williams » Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:47 pm

Trimbach's flagship bottlings (CSH, CFE, Seigneurs de Ribeaupierre , etc )are all estate wines, but I think the base level Riesling, Gewurz, etc are a combination of owned and purchased fruit.

I know its too late for WineAdvisor, but I'd join in disagreeing with using "improving". The best (imperfect) translation for elevage is probably "raising", and the most common possibilities (oak decisions, aging, blending, etc) could be covered in a sentence or two.
no avatar
User

Tim York

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

4972

Joined

Tue May 09, 2006 2:48 pm

Location

near Lisieux, France

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: What's a négociant and why should we care

by Tim York » Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:52 pm

Re Trimbach:

Estate production comes from 27 hectares and bought in grapes from 85 hectares - source rvf's Les Meilleurs Vins de France.
Tim York
no avatar
User

Victorwine

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

2031

Joined

Thu May 18, 2006 9:51 pm

Re: WTN /Wine Advisor: What's a négociant and why should we care

by Victorwine » Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:56 pm

Question for Robin;
If the “éleveur” out sources grapes or buys “unfermented” grape juice and makes wine from such grapes or juice doesn’t that technically make him/her the “producer” of the wine?

I think the label should clearly define (or make it clear anyway) that the wine was either bought in bulk (not actually knowing who the producer(s) was (were) or the growers for that matter but knowing who cellared, bottled and brought the wine to market) or if the grapes themselves or juice was just out-sourced (not actually knowing who grew the grapes but knowing who produced, cellared, bottled and brought the wine to market). A distinction should be made between an ordinary “négociant” (one who just cellars and bottles) and one who has much more than proper storage facilities and cellars, and has the capability to out source grapes or freshly crushed (unfermented) grape juice and the facilities to produce his/her own wine. He/she should be called a “négociant-éleveur” (just to distinguish himself/herself from an ordinary “négociant”).
As far as I’m concerned if the “négociant” only has the proper storage facilities and cellar and has to buy wine in bulk and he/she “improves”. or “polishes” (or just cellars and bottles) the wine and labels it with his/her own label and brings it to market he/she is simply a “négociant” or “wine broker”. A “négociant-éleveur” one who out sources grapes or juice produces, cellars, bottles and brings to market his/her wine is a “wine producer”.
In 1731 the founder of Bouchard Pere & Fils, Michael Bouchard was a cloth or textile merchant from the French Alps.

Salute

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AhrefsBot, Amazon, Babbar, ClaudeBot, Dale Williams, Google AgentMatch, Mark Lipton and 0 guests

Powered by phpBB ® | phpBB3 Style by KomiDesign