Open Mike: Carmenere from Chile.

There has been some enlightened discussion about the merits/or not of Carmenere so now is the chance with weekend coming up to splurge out maybe $10 (?!) and see what all the hoopla/or lack of is about!!
I was dragged down to a winebar for lunch and was in the position to perhaps try a couple of glasses. One was sufficient but the search is gonna be on forumites!!!

WTN: `05 Santa Rita Carmenere Reserva.

Dark purple color, nose presented oak, green pepper and some blackberry. This berry fruit followed along on the initial entry. Poor mid-palate but anticipated more on the finish. Was not to be however with some oak and horsey leather tones. I looked for some green character but the hint of bitterness was all too much for me.
Entry-level Santa Rita is perhaps not the right way to start off (humming agreement?) but as I said the search is on.
Some might think this was a duff bottle perhaps?
Hope contestants have some fun here!

Hm, as Bob points out I don't think you'll find the best example of carmenere for $10. Much of the Chilean carmenere available in the US is mass market stuff that is shipped in via tanker and labeled up here, tons of oak that generally tastes to me like oak chips or tannin powder, as well as some inky dark pigment that has to come from somewhere else than the carmenere grape. I tracked down a small bottling (50 cases) of carmenere from a Washington winery that I was going to order .... but I can't find my notes right now. Maybe a search engine whiz can help us out? I think there's another 100% in Santa Cruz, and if anyone can point me to a good example of Chilean carmenere that's actually available here, I'll try to get some so we can participate in the Open Mike. Thanks!

Hm, as Bob points out I don't think you'll find the best example of carmenere for $10. Much of the Chilean carmenere available in the US is mass market stuff that is shipped in via tanker and labeled up here, tons of oak that generally tastes to me like oak chips or tannin powder, as well as some inky dark pigment that has to come from somewhere else than the carmenere grape. I tracked down a small bottling (50 cases) of carmenere from a Washington winery that I was going to order .... but I can't find my notes right now. Maybe a search engine whiz can help us out? I think there's another 100% in Santa Cruz, and if anyone can point me to a good example of Chilean carmenere that's actually available here, I'll try to get some so we can participate in the Open Mike. Thanks!

The ones recommended by my Brazilian colleague all seem available on wine-searcher...

One or another, depending on the vintage, might depart from this general characteristic. The last I tried that didn't show it was the Torres Santa Digna Reserva 2005.

Well, I'll try this one. It's available from Wine.com for around $10. I don't have high hopes because the Torres firm is a mass market producer, exporting firm, and distiller that exports to 120 countries. But ... maybe they let the carmenere just be itself! I have a friend who makes wine in Chile for part of the year and he says that the small-production carmeneres there are very, very nice, but like their US counterparts they sell out quickly in situ.

Okay, $21.07 and I 'saved' $1.05! Torres SDR 2005 is on its way. (Wine.com reserves the right to sub vintage.)

Actually, I'd love to try this with the grower that we purchase our carmenere from, but I'd also like to try some other US releases against it. Any suggestions?

In today's newletter Dan Berger recommended the '07 Oops Carmenere, Valle Central at $14 as his "Wine of the Week." A search of NH Liq stores shows a zero inventory at $13.99. Will have to look elsewhere.

weekend coming up to splurge out maybe $10 (?!) and see what all the hoopla/or lack of is about!!

I was just having some fun, most up here are around $18 for starters!! Have my eyes on a Casa Silva. The Cono Sur was blended with CS so I will avoid.

I see on the other thread that Oswaldo did not like the one bottle of Concha y Toro Terrunyo that he tried. On the other hand, our local tasting group rated one of this series as the best of the bunch from 6 top Chilean wines tasted a few years ago. Rogov's tasting notes on the two best wines of that tasting follow-

Carmenere, Concha y Toro, Terrunyo, Peumo Valley, 1999: Certainly the best Carmenere released by Concha y Toro and one of the best ever out of Chile. Medium to full bodied, this deep ruby towards purple wine has plenty of smooth, already well integrated tannins, those set off nicely by a rich range of flavors and aromas that include black cherries, plums, licorice and cedar wood. A long finish here on which you will find sweet green pepper and eucalyptus coming in nicely. Not one for long term cellaring but drinking beautifully now - 2004. Score 91. (Tasted 19 Dec 2002)

Carmenere, Concha y Toro, Special Reserve, Rapel Valley 1998: Made entirely from Carmenere grapes, which as the fates and the famous phyloxera plague in France many years ago assured would continue to thrive in Chile far more than in France, this medium bodied wine if rich and flavorful, with spicy black cherries, currants, plums and mineral flavors. Let the wine develop in the glass for 15 minutes and you will also find leather, chocolate and mocha flavors and aromas in an appealing understated elegance. Score 89. (Tasted 5 May 2001)

I am a fan of Carmenere, although not of the $ 10 tanker bottled versions. You have to pay more to get a really good one, at least on this side of the planet.

I am a fan of Carmenere, although not of the $ 10 tanker bottled versions. You have to pay more to get a really good one, at least on this side of the planet.

Nice sum up Mike. The first wine was $32 on the shelf here..I looked last night.
That is 2 pretty good TNs there, hope others have as much success!

The first wine was $32 on the shelf here..

Pretty close to the price here last time I checked. Worth it, IMVHO.

weekend coming up to splurge out maybe $10 (?!) and see what all the hoopla/or lack of is about!!

I was just having some fun, most up here are around $18 for starters!! Have my eyes on a Casa Silva. The Cono Sur was blended with CS so I will avoid.

Maybe you shouldn't avoid it, Bob. As you may have noticed, several people have commented (well, two that I remember, but I was one of them) that Carmenere may perform best when it is blended with Cabernet Sauvignon (assuming the CS is good, of course).

For your understanding of Carmenere, you might want to try a blend too.

Carmenere, like many other grapes is capable of producing wines of high, mediocre and low quality, that depending more on vineyard techniques, the winemaker and the amount of oak deemed necessary and not so much from vintage year, especially when from South America. At its best, Carmenere can be a full-bodied, softly or firmly tannic wine, with fine balance between tannins, wood, acidity and fruits. Over-oaked Carmenere, like over-oaked Merlot (with which the grape has often been confused) can make you chuckle but only somewhat in anguish after you've spit out the wood that lingers in your mouth.

A few of my tasting notes for Carmenere wines can be found at
http://www.stratsplace.com/cgi-bin/sear ... =&UserID=4

Best
Rogov

weekend coming up to splurge out maybe $10 (?!) and see what all the hoopla/or lack of is about!!

I was just having some fun, most up here are around $18 for starters!! Have my eyes on a Casa Silva. The Cono Sur was blended with CS so I will avoid.

Maybe you shouldn't avoid it, Bob. As you may have noticed, several people have commented (well, two that I remember, but I was one of them) that Carmenere may perform best when it is blended with Cabernet Sauvignon (assuming the CS is good, of course).

For your understanding of Carmenere, you might want to try a blend too.

Hoke, as usual you make an excellent point. After the Casa Silva, I will buy a bottle of the Cono Sur. These guys make some nice juice, especially under the Vision and 20 barrels labels.

OK, with Bob pointing a gun at my head, I ordered a glass of carmenère at lunch today:

2007 Errazuriz Reserva
Bold nose of cherry and oak vanilla, with a light overtone that I first mistook for the dreaded green stems, but soon reclassified as black pepper. Rather hot without food, but settles down after food into cherry and vanilla, plus some eucalyptus. With aeration a lemon note appears, unexpectedly. Marcia says lemon peel, and then custard, which I figure is a memory amalgam of lemon and vanilla. Interestingly different. A touch of burnt sugar emerges, and a very light vegetable stemminess, that may signal varietal correctness, and is actually quite agreeable at this subdued level. In short, competent and interesting, with some personality. To say this was the carmenère I've liked the most so far would be to say little, but it was, nevertheless. The amount of oak was about right, suggesting that more expensive Erraruzurizes (try saying that after a few glasses) may be less to my liking, but this was, er, quite dandy.

Oswaldo has avoided the firing squad with this excellent TN!
Very good notes..vanilla, pepper, lemon, burnt sugar. Which black fruits did you notice?
Also did you have any left for day 2? My Casa Silva really softened up overnight.

Oswaldo has avoided the firing squad with this excellent TN!
Very good notes..vanilla, pepper, lemon, burnt sugar. Which black fruits did you notice?
Also did you have any left for day 2? My Casa Silva really softened up overnight.

Alas, cherry was about the only berry on display... It was a 187ml bottle that Marcia and I shared at a restaurant, so we didn't get to see how it might have evolved overnight.

Since I have (becoming had) accumulated a small prejudice against carmenère, I would never have ordered it otherwise, so I'm grateful to you for "forcing" me to try it!

Bob Hower in his great thread "so lets talk about oak" seems to have enjoyed the Casa Silva Carmenere even though he had some concerns and questions about the influence of the oak content. Hope this brief summing up is correct Bob?

Well, I managed to track down a bottle for this OM and although I do not have too much experience with this grape variety, I found the tasting experience very enjoyable. I did take half of the wine into the store where I purchased, thus giving the staff a chance to evaluate. Does anyone else here do this from time to time?

WTN: `06 Casa Silva Carmenere Gran Reserva Los Lingues, Colchagua V.

Good natural cork, $24 Cdn, 14.5% alc, opened and decanted for an hour. No sediment noted.

Color. Deep rich crimson/purple, just like Harry O`s grape juice! Has a medium intense centre, can just see thumb outline through the glass when tilted.

Nose. Day 1 is instant cherry when I pour to decanter. Some raspberry as it opens and warms (I had slightly chilled). Has some floral tones and tad savoury from the oak. At first I thought nose was closed up, its not that oaky to me however. Developed some herbal notes over 2 hrs but no "green olives/peppers".

Day 2 has a big change. An almost mesquite-smoked aroma with green peppercorns. Some staff found it "exotic..wooden plank". Thought interesting comments.

Palate. Crunch time Bob Hower! Initial entry thoughts were softish tannins, blackberry, excellent acidity, some oak but no vanilla. I did not find too many green tones here at all but on the finish some squeezed out tea bag tannin. There is a hint of sweetness after an hour in the glass, along with some more plum and cherry.
Anastasia thought "not the most supple/easy-to-drink red I have had lately". Definately needs more time to develope some of that blackberry fruit as well as chocolate tone.
On the second day, found loganberries but one person at store thought finish a tad short? Could not agree there.

So analysis over! Very nice Carmenere that is a bit young maybe. I sure would never think merlot here in the glass!

Most interesting Bob, and fairly well in line with my experience with the Casa Silva. My concerns with oak here were ones of my own personal focus - trying to be aware of oak and what it does to the flavor of wine, and more specifically whether it contributed to the tannins in this wine which I found had an interesting edge to them, just a hint of bitter sharpness, like a sawtooth pattern on a leaf (yes, I know - oak leaves are not sawtoothed.) My overall impression of this wine, is the lush, smooth, elegant, quality of the mid-palate, really very nice. I found a very subtle vanilla sweetness to it as well - a nice accompaniment to the rich red plummy fruits. No noticeable green stems/green peppers. I'd fault it only for its lack of complexity in the finish, but for the price, I had a lot of fun with it and would say it's well worth a try. One of the clerks at my local wine store said "I love that wine." A great idea Bob, to bring some back to the store for further opinions, though I prefer to let THEM provide the tastes. I'll report on my next Camenere soon - a 2005 Armador from Odfjell Yinards.

So, last night I picked up a bottle of Los Lingues on the way home and we had it with dinner, a hearty cozido (similar to roast beef hash) that Marcia painstakingly put together. The vintage was 2005, in contrast with the 2006s had by Messrs Bob & Bob:

2005 Casa Silva Gran Reserva Los Lingues Carmenère 14.5%
Attractive deep crimson color. A subdued berry nose with a more overt aroma that made me think vegetable, then gravitated towards the more precise roasted green peppers and a touch of sundried tomatoes. The alcohol had the very specific smell of rubbing alcohol. Then, oddly, I detected some guava, for the first time in a red wine. First tasted before eating, I liked the filling mouthfeel and the acid/fruit balance. The tannins were mild and unobtrusive, with light cocoa and vanilla flavors that suggest lighthanded use of oak. The carmenere "green vegetable stemminess" we've been talking about, in this case more sharply delineated as roasted green peppers, became more and more preponderant with aeration, with a savory or saline note that reminded me of iodine. The alcohol, which at first seemed very well integrated, became more prominent and "hot" once the food dampened the acidity, which had masked it before. A good, solid wine, honest and well crafted, with personality, but not my cup of tea.

I am beginning to believe, not as prejudice but as judice, that some degree of stemminess is varietally correct in Carmenère. But, I am glad to report that, thanks to this thread, Carmenère has come in from the cold and joined the league of civilized grapes. Though I'm still not crazy about that characteristic green note, it wasn't displeasing here and in the Errazuriz. At least it is distinctive, an endangered adjective.

WTN: Castillero del Diablo Carmenere Reserva 2007 - Concha y Toro - Alc. 13.5% - (€ 6,99)

This wine demonstrates to me why I sometimes misjudge wines at sip and spit tastings. First impressions of full up-front fruit with attractive, if slightly jammy, notes of black currant and just ripe blackberry were good in spite of a lack of structure. Gradually as the bottle emptied, however, less attractive elements became more prominent; some structure emerged towards the finish but of a dry caramel variety (wood tannins?) together with an overlay to the aromas which I did not particularly like; it was a little smoky, perhaps dry incense; maybe this was the green vegetable stemminess of which others write though that descriptor did not spring to mind when I was drinking. It was not the same as the invigorating green vegetal touch which I quite like in moderation on a lot of Bordeaux and Loire wines.

Germaine liked it better than I did but mentioned some cloying on the finish, with which I agree. My rating; just 14/20.

Without a lot more Chilean experience, I would have a lot of difficult in distinguishing this from Merlot. I guess that the Carménère variety is capable of better things than this bottle.

Tim, you gave it a good shot. Thanks for all the support for this OM!

2005 Armador Carmenère from Odfjell Vineyards Chile. Valle dle Maule 55%; Valle del Maipo 45%. 13.5% alc. Cork closure; $11 US.

Beautiful deep dark garnet color. Having been prompted by prior notes on this thread, I got green pepper on the nose, along with red fruits and heat. Another Carmenère with a silky mid-palate and substantial mouth-feel, a pretty decent finish, and nice rich red fruit flavors backed by tannins softened with just a but of vanilIa, but somehow I just can't shake the green pepper overtones and they detract. I had a good time with this wine over 3 days and liked it, but I had to work at it. This exercise is making me think that the proper role for Carmenère is as a blending grape. It really seems to have some lovely qualities, but I've yet to find a label I'd buy again. None the less these are inexpensive labels, and for the money, the ones I've tried are pretty decent. More to come.

This exercise is making me think that the proper role for Carmenère is as a blending grape. It really seems to have some lovely qualities, but I've yet to find a label I'd buy again.

I agree, Bob. Indeed I think that all the authorised Bordeaux varieties are best blended with the arguable exceptions of Cabernet franc and Malbec. There is some interest in increasing the use of Carmenère in Bordeaux where it remains an authorised variety in most red appellations.

Incidentally there seems no consensus in France on how this grape is spelled. I have seen both "Carménère" and "Carmenère". For international marketing, the Chileans of course dispense with the accents.

2007 Miguel Torres Santa Digna Carmenère Reserva Central Valley 14.0%
The 2005 was recommended as not having that characteristic green pepper taste, so when I ran into a half bottle of the 2007 at a store yesterday, I decided to take it out for a spin. The nose instantly said green peppers, perhaps closer to green twigs. In the mouth, good acid/fruit balance, but the flavor is essentially green twigs with sweetness on a bed of plums. But not aggressive in any way, in fact quite agreeable, though extremely simple. But aeration led to that cloying stewed fruit compote taste that I am beginning to associate with over ripe grapes. And on the subject of blending with cabernet, this is 85% carmenère and 15% cabernet.

If this green pepper taste that I find in all of them is not the result of picking too early (like when it used to be confused with merlot), and is also found in examples with very ripe grapes, then it must simply be a varietal characteristic. But, judging from the above, not everyone seems to detect it, so I wonder if I'm just particularly sensitive to it (though Marcia also got the same impression in every instance).

PS: Mary, have you already tried the 2005 you ordered?

I purchased the Santa Carolina when I was in New Orleans this past summer. There are definite overtones of green pepper and some tobacco that I found pleasing. A great grape type and something that does quite well in Chile...